Normandy 44 Bunkers

[Gordons HQ]

I am at present playing the Allies in Normandy 44 Advancing Inland Alt scenario.
There are a couple of issues with this scenario I am not too happy with and these generally concern the Bunkers and Pillboxes.

From the start my opponent has had a free hand to move his forces in a rapid response to the Invasion and I was expecting this from the description of the scenario.
What he did and this seems perfectly allowable and I must stress he has done nothing wrong here, was to move everything immediately towards the beaches. Given the scenario I would have done exactly the same.
He then proceeded to fill up all the bunkers and pillboxes with everything he had to an absolute maximum. Which once again according to the game was OK

The problem I have here is the on Omaha beach the Pillboxes are full to bursting making it all but impossible to get off the beach.
Many of these Pillboxes must have over 600 men in them, plus a number of guns and this seems to me to be totally unrealistic.
Having visited Normandy and seen many of the pillboxes which still exist, I am certain they could not hold anything like that number.
Also in the game these pillboxes cover the entire beach there are no gaps at all in them.
I would expect in this scenario everything the Axis had to be moved to the beach as soon as possible. But not everything that turns up there to have the protection of these pillboxes.
I would also expect much more in the way of casualties from Naval fire from these units turning up at the beach, more than I am able to inflict because of the bunkers.
I know these pillboxes could cover the beach with fire, but there were places in between them, gullies and the like, which I understand many men in the real battle got off the beach up these.
I know that the game cannot allow these gaps because of the one kilometer hexes, but I really feel there should be some limitation as to the number of men these pillboxes can hold in view of this.

At one point I have taken one of these pillboxes there is nothing in front of these men at all only occupied pillboxes either side of them. Because of ZOC they they still can't move out and get behind the other ones which looks pretty silly. It means I have to take three adjacent bunkers before I can move men out. Nothing I can do but it really does look silly.
I think this is all too far in the way of an advantage for the Axis which in reality I believe they wouldn't have had.

It now makes for an interesting game to see what can be done if Omaha has failed as it looks like now.
I would be grateful to know what others think of this.

[Volcano Man]

Actually, it sounds like you are playing an old version of the scenario. Omaha beach has been reworked extensively since then to allow for historical advance possibilities. The easiest way to see if you have the newest version is whether or not you could (at the start of the scenario) see an signal looking guy with a radio located in the TRENCH hex near Colleville. This unit represents the German signal detachment that was located in WN 63 and it is there for game play reasons. It is an immobile unit so you should be able to see it, or you opponent would know if it was there. If it wasn't then you should download the latest N44_Alt pack at www.volcanomods.com and Omaha will be more historical.

If it is there then I don't know what to say, other than that even with the changes it is still difficult to get off the beach and it takes a lot of practice to get a technique down on doing it. Once thing is certain, the US MUST get a foothold large enough as to be able to get units off the beach or otherwise Omaha will definately be lost. The German release rate is pretty much historical so the longer it takes for that happen then of course the more German units will appear that will slowly make it an impossible task.

Anyway, I am pretty sure that you have the older version so go ahead and download the newest and see how it goes from there.

[Baelfiin]

The latest version does a great job I think in balancing OMAHA. Its not a garuntee that the americans are going to get off that beach. But it also not impossible. Historically the Allies considered shutting OMAHA down and diverting to the British beaches. I think that the current incarnation is about as close as we can get with our game system.

[Rev Rico]

the Allies considered shutting OMAHA down and diverting to the British beaches.

Unfortunately none of the scns give us this option. As it is, if OMAHA is a disaster you're stuck with all those reinforcements sitting offshore. VM, you up for adding Strategy Options for them?

Bob

[Volcano Man]

Unfortunately none of the scns give us this option. As it is, if OMAHA is a disaster you're stuck with all those reinforcements sitting offshore. VM, you up for adding Strategy Options for them?

Bob

Maybe one day but I don't have the time to do this at the moment. I think with the changes it is more likely that the allies will eventually get off Omaha, it is only a matter of how long it takes. For now, if for some reason they don't get off the beach, then the user will just have to hold on the reinforcments until Omaha can be relieved from the east or west.

[Volcano Man]

That said, I could put impassible hexes adjacent to the beaches (in the water) which should all the allied player to withdraw units if he needs to. What does everyone think about that? It might be a way to declutter the beach and allow for fresh troops to arrive, but of course it would be at the loss of the withdrawn unit.

[Gordons HQ]

Hi Volcano Man,
Firstly I am playing your latest version and I can see the radio man clearly.
Secondly I'm not sure how many have played this scenario, where these pillboxes are stacked so extensively. I think anyone who has would be a genius to get off the beach, any ordinary player like me has no real chance at all.
I have played the standard campaign and scenarios and although it was a struggle I've always managed eventually to get off Omaha in them.
To me what the real problem here is that the release of all the Axis units, mostly by 1000 on the 6th June. This allows the Axis player to move them all to the beach and into these pillboxes quicker than the Allies can get things moving along.
In the game we are playing most of these contain something like six 100 men (or more) companies plus guns of some sort, in fact a 7 stack pillbox. This I firmly believe was in fact impossible for the Axis in real life.
The problem here for the Allied player is he has to disrupt all these units before he has a realistic chance of assaulting these boxes. The odds here are very bad, because to get off the beach you have to disrupt and assault three such adjacent boxes because of ZOC. This means disrupting about 18 or more units. No mean task considering most of your own units are without tanks or are disrupted themselves.
So knowing you are not going to get off the beach and the units there have no choice but to be eventually wiped out. What do you do with with all the other reinforcements.
As it stands there is no option and the Allies will probably lose at this early point in the scenario. I think there is a big need for some other option in the game here or a reduced stacking limit for the pillboxes.
I am now at this point in our game, to put any more men ashore would be foolish and only give easy points to my opponent. So I am left with the choice of trying to rescue the game without gaining Omaha from the seaward side. An interesting if perhaps hopeless task.
In all other aspects I have found the scenario very good. At one point I thought the 6th Airbourne was in grave danger, but it looks as if that can now be rescued.
I admire the time and work you put into these scenario's and I hope there is something that can be done here, of course this is just my point of view and others may disagree.

Regards,
Gordon

[Aetius]

Having played the begginings of the Normandy campaign twice as the allies in the last three to four months I must say I must echo some of Gordon's opinions.
In my first campaign (with the previous Alt version) I couldn't get out of Omaha despite having taken 4 or 5 positions in the first day. Omaha was liberated on d+2 by the 7th Armoured, not on time to save US 16th Infantry which was completely wiped out.
In the later attempt (with the more recent Alt version) I was more successfull, but only because I sent the rangers from Point-du-Hoc to the beach to create a ZOC for my units of the 29th to get out. Omaha was then literally rolled up from the west to the east, as I captured only one or two other positions.
My complains don't go to the time of the release of the germans, however, but for the engineers which arrived disrupted. My opponent skilfully concentrated his fire on them and it was some turns before they could undisrupt and blow up the ditches. In one case I only managed to blow it up on the night of the 6th. The germans then gained valuable time and reinforced the pillboxes with many units, making them hard to fall. Assaults are not that effective with the alt rule, and the americans have a dificult time disrupting B quality units with so little hard attack capability.
I have even more complains about Sword beach, which was a relatively easy beach with the comandos reaching the other side of the Orne at about noon. That is completely undoable, as I usually break out from the beach only late in the afternoon. As to even threaten Caen in the first day, that is out of the question.
Also, the many garrison units that were inserted to give Antitank positions some ZOC imediatly abandon those positions and head for the beach pillboxes.
Being about turn 55 now I have cleared the whole of Cotentin peninsula of german units, and am fighting in Cherbourg. That was partly consented, but I believe german landsers are too fragile and carry to little firepower. From what I read in "Overlord" or "Beyond the Beachhead" german infantry companies managed to have more firepower than the americans, and the unit ratings in the game are the other way around. Outnumbered during the whole campaign, the germans also need to have more quality only to be able to stand their ground; else, with fatigue acumulating, C units become E very fast. For that reason i would suggest to improve the quality of the landsers by one level, the way it was done for the 352nd: 709th from E to D, 91st from C to B, 243rd from D to C, and so on. A side effect of this would be to make the landings harder, and they are close enough already. So some pillboxes could be downgraded to bunkers and these reduced back in their defence capability.
I also would like to say that these comments should not mask the fact that this is a brilliantly developed campaign. It is being very fun to play, and I will do it again. I can spend a whole day hammering at a single Bocage hex to make progress (and sometimes don't), and that only after costly assaults: very historical. And the very low initial allied supply level inhibites artillery operations very effectively.
Well done.

Rui[/i]

[Barbarrossa]

Hi Volcano Man

I am Gordon HQ opponent, playing the Germans and learnt my tactics from Heinz in the recent Anvil Tournament when he beat me because I could not get off the beach even though I had captured 3 bunkers which were not together.

I do not have the numbers of men in the bunkers as claimed but certainly have reinforced them and they now would be very hard to take them.

The trouble is with the rule of being unable to advance from one zone of control to the other.

The Americans Capture a pillbox. The German player retreats into the adjoining Bunkers but makes certain that no reteating units adjoin the captured Pillbox inland but places even a distrupted unit one hex away inland. This completly prevents the Americans from advancing except by once again trying to take the adjoining bunkers and one is not sufficient if they are in the middle, to m ake sure three have to captured that are adjacent to each other.

A simple solution would be to permit the rule to enable an advance from one enemy control to another with loss of all move points and the first unit being disrupted.

Omaha as it stands is just to hard for the Allied Player.

The Americans DID get off the beach and that was the Historical result. The historical result should only be a draw to the Allies

Hope this helps.

[Hog of War]

Heinz is doing the same thing to me now in The Race to Caen_Alt. How he got all those panzers in those bunkers is beyond me :-)

This defensive technique is going to catch on like wild-fire in scenarios where the axis is not fixed or where you don't limit the benefits of bunkers in regards to numbers and type of troops.