Advice on Tactics for McNamara Values

Elxaime · 06-10-2007, 06:03 AM,

Trying out one of Volcano Man's alternative scenarios for K43 using the McNamara values, and I am interested in advice.

Having played K43 a number of times as Soviets, I am used to high Soviet casualties. I am also playing carefully, fighting from entrenchments and bunkers where at all possible and not exposing units. We are also using all the recommended optionals.

However, the Soviet losses have been astounding, far more than before in a scenario where the Soviets (unlike historically) tended to get soundly beaten anyway under the PzC system. Using the new McNamara values, German armor is now vulnerable only to AT guns, of which the Soviets have fewer than the Germans have tanks and these are easily overrun or wiped out by German air or artillery . Supposedly, Soviet infantry assault on German tanks advancing without infantry is supposed to be a threat, but I have yet to see that since the German tank stacks are so large and any Soviet infantry that gets close are now taking 40-50 casualties per shot. German mechanized infantry are now also killing entire Soviet divisions with 20-30 kills per shot. Soviet units that resisted for days in the real campaign are melting away during the first day. Soviet armor also now seems largely ineffective, since even the run of the mill German armor kills from 2 kilometers away with the frequency of an M1A1 Abrams, not to mention Tigers killshots from 3-4 hexes. And this is against hull-down Soviet tanks in trenches. Given they have "C" and "D" quality to begin with and a 3 percent recovery rate, there is little chance Soviet tank numbers will recover.

I am thinking I must be completely misunderstanding the new system. Has anyone else played the alt K43 yet? Any advice on Soviet tactics?

Indragnir · (This post was last modified: 06-10-2007, 07:25 AM by Indragnir.)

Volcano Man · 06-10-2007, 01:41 PM,

By all means, I want to promote a good discussion on it. However, I have some input:

Exlaime,

First, the blurb in the notes describing how German tanks that are unsuppored by infantry can be destroyed by soviet infantry was before the alternative assault resolution rule was used. It was found that with the rule off the tanks were far too weak in assaults, and armored car units especially could be wiped out by soviet infantry assaults. I guess I forgot to remove the from the notes. In any case, infantry can never stop anything if they are disrupted obviously. However, if undisrupted infantry are assaulted by armor then I don't see the effects you describe. There must be more to the story. I have sent 30+ Pz IV and Pz III battalions on assaults against a soviet D rated rifle battalion and I see a wash of 1 tank loss vs about 10 to 20 men killed. That seems right to me, but nothing on the order of them running over the enemy unless they are either high fatigue or disrupted of course.

I must stress that the artillery value correction went a long way to providing a counter to the German armor. I suspect that the game you played was pre artillery correction which could make all the difference. Russian artillery can now cause losses and they definately cause fatigue to accumulate and disruptions. This is important in breaking up the German attack.

The MN based values do provide a realistic rock-paper-scissors type of counter where something always has trump. The trick is playing to that as much as possible. I have played the axis in the southern part of the campaign against Marquo and he fought me to a standstill. A lot does has have to do with individual, as these values are such that they can be quite unforgiving to someone that may not be accustomed to them.

Lastly, it also depends on the situation in the campaign. If you play Minsk you can realistically walk over the Germans but the Germans can counter with a few superior units. The Soviets in Kursk can only expect to blunt the German advance and trade blood and space for time and German fatigue. There is definately a critical point for the Russians at which time the battle can either turn into a soviet rout or a standstill and then gradual turning of the tide. As for how you come about this, you have to ask some of the more experienced Russian players that play the _Alt scenarios. Then again, they might agree with you too. I am always looking for ways to improve the _Alt scenarios with a subtle change if necissary.

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 06-10-2007, 01:59 PM by Volcano Man.)

Elxaime · 06-11-2007, 04:25 AM,

Hi VM -

Yes, we are playing before the new higher hard attack artillery values. I agree that could make a big difference.

On Soviet infantry anti-tank abilities, didn't the Soviets spend literally months before Kursk training their infantry to counter tanks and creating special infantry AT units? Yet, the Soviet AT infantry units in the system have miserable values all around. There had been some progress with Soviet infantry since 1941, but that doesn't seem reflected in the McNamara values.

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 06-11-2007, 05:28 AM by Volcano Man.)

Indragnir · 06-11-2007, 06:12 AM,

Volcano Man,

What about increasing AT guns defense and HA factors, and increasing a bit defensive modifiers of terrain? (I mean cities, towns, forests etc)
Also I think a good approach was made by HPS with those artillery units (Budapest) with HA XX/1 what about those 76mm artillery guns-like HA 17/1 and SA 9/12 (same here), I know it has its own drawbacks, I'm only wondering.

Also I agree with you about make stronger russian defensive positions.

Carpet bombing scares me a little (I was the german player) when in 1 turn of concentrated carpet bombing destroyed almost 5th Breakthroug Artillery Division (IIRC about 120 guns), due carpet bombing no limit per hex.

Volcano Man · 06-11-2007, 06:25 AM,

I am totally against changing any unit ratings because it would defeat the purpose of the Alt scenarios. However, pdt changes are not out of the question. The HA 17/1 for 76mm guns is not a bad idea but if you look at their new HA stand off range rating they are some of the best guns for that purpose, (a 6 or 7?). I don't think that most players would want to sacrifice their HA range like this in Kursk, but then again I could be wrong. I will look into it. But being that I am a slave to uniformity such a change would have to be done for all 76mm ZiS guns in the other PzCs with Alt scnearios.

Carpet bombing is highly effective yes. But when I am not hearing about the complaints that it is too effective (because it does not abide by the airstrike limit) then I am hearing about the complaints that it is ineffective (because it scatters). So I don't know what to say. Your opponent should not have stacked 120 guns in and around a single hex for one thing. These level bombers were devistating but they are not 100% accurate either. I have personally killed many of my own men using them, and anyone that does not and uses them on front line hexes is either lucky or saving and loading the turn. All in all, I think that the level bombers having CARPET status is realistic.