Stalingrad Comments

Marquo · 01-30-2007, 01:38 PM,

I just finished my first CG as the Axis, and my opponent and I have some observations, and would like to solicit others with the goal of tweaking the CG a bit.

1. There are perhaps not enough VPs in and around the pocket to cause the Axis player to want to stay in the pocket.

2. The Winterstorm Units in the southeast do not have an independent supply source. It is possible for the Russian to place a ring around the fixed Axis units and the 2 supply sources on the west side of the map, thereby isolating the Winterstorm units.

In my game the threat of having these units so isolated was so great, that I withdrew everything in a general southern movement which eventually completely overwhelmed the Soviet southern pincer. There are simply not enough VPs in Stalingrad to make the Axis player think much about giving it up.

Any other issues? Am I imagining things?

Marquo

von Waldenburg · 01-31-2007, 12:10 AM,

In Uranus SS those 2 supply sources are protected by the SS so I asume you've played the historical campaign or something like that. Another supply source south of Kotelnikovo would do it but in a sense the current set-up reflects the need to hold the Chir front that the Germans had to at least cover minimaly winter storm and also hold the stalingrad area and its 2 level 50 supply sources.

Sgt Fury · 01-31-2007, 02:34 AM,

Yes, probably a weak supply source in the SE makes sense. I think you're right about the cost of leaving Stalingrad -- the Germans are not compelled to stay there. I'm playing Russia in a team campaign of the SS variant and it appears Russia will need to capture the Stalingrad area plus completely destroy every last German in the pocket to get a victory. In another campaign (also SS variant) I played my opponent tried to withdraw from the pocket and it was frustrating for Russia because the Don front units remained fixed and could not persue in force. This is the case in the Historical campaign as well. I would suggest, if you plan to retreat from the pocket, play the "retreat" variant. It releases the Don front en masse about a day and half earlier and may be a better game overall for that strategy.

Fury

Glenn Saunders · 01-31-2007, 09:33 AM,

von Waldenburg · 01-31-2007, 10:14 AM,

It seems to make sense to me that the german supply comes from the west (Rostov) and not from the south (Caucasus). A weaker supply source in the southern edge (I would say SW not SE though) would remove most german supply problems but I'm not sure if it was available in real life, although I would say winter storm was well supplied but I also know that once the Chir front cracked, the LVII PzK situation became untenable and the 6th Pz was transfered in a westernly direction on 23rd December. About the retreat, in my opinion if the Germans dont retreat very fast (ie in the first 2 days), and retreat later the chances of being intercepted by strong russian mobile forces are very high and the retreat too risky. I would agree with encouraging the germans to stay in the pocket even more...

Volcano Man · 01-31-2007, 02:16 PM,

Well, if a supply source is indeed determined necissary, then lots of times supply sources will be added at a reduced level to represent supplies taking the "long way around". I mean, if supplies would likely come from Rostov, then supplies could still approach from the south in a round about way, justifying a reduction. That is, of course, one approach if the designer decides a supply source is desired.

On the other hand, a lack of supplies in the south *should* influence the German player not to retreat to the south, but it seems that is exactly what Marquo did? So, adding supply sources to the south might only influence it even more, unless I am misunderstanding. But I agree, in order to... influence the German player to historically hold the Stalingrad pocket, then it is probably a good idea to place a large amount of VPs within.

**Ricky B** · 01-31-2007, 02:41 PM,

Actually, Stalingrad is north of the east-west line through Rostov, and I believe the best railroad to the city ran up from the southwest, along the route followed by Manstein/Hoth's relief effort. That was part of the reason for the relief effort being launched from that direction, along with the surprise factor since it was further from the 6th Army lines.

Based on the actual rail lines, at the least, the supply along the southwest map edge should be as high as on the west map edge, as all the supply funneled through the Rostov area and that was to the southwest of Stalingrad.

Rick

Marquo · 02-01-2007, 07:56 AM,

The reason I broke out to the South was because my opponent had captured one of the 2 west supply sources, and the other one was all that was supply everything not in the potential pocket. Breaking out to the west across the Don is very hard, so I slowly moved everthing to the south, and once I tore a huge hole in the Soviet southern wing, I was going to then press northwest to the 2 western supply sources. In fact the weight of the mass of 4 PzDs, 2 MTZ Ds, and assorted Axis IDs was more than the poor Soviet southern wing could bear, which was ripped asunder. I considered the southern attack safer as the Stalingrad supply sources were still my back up; the western push means these depots get abanDONed (a subtle pun).

Marquo