1914 ADF is rediculous

[cazart!]

This would probably help. For example, I had 3 batteries on high ground, supported by 2 MG section and they were destroyed by a cavalry charge. My fault for allowing that to happen, but the MG sections only fired once each, and the batteries didn't fire at all (all in good order, in command, with ammo). Are you saying that if MDF and ADF is selected this sort of thing is less likely to happen? jonny ;)

It still would have not helped your specific situation, since the cavalry that overran did so from a distance that you thought you were safe.

However, in a front line situation, every one of those units would have fired at full strength against the closest threat stack, giving a good chance to disorder.... (of course the ones in the rear do not receive fire, so would likely move up and assault, so situation still not solved...

[Ricky B]

I have to disagree that the units are always going to fire full strength against the closest unit, in a historical situation, rather than a game. It would be most often the case, but not always. I am reading through a book, fairly detailed at times, on the American attacks in the Meuse-Argonne at the end of the war, and frequently the only time their attacks worked was when the german MGs and arty were firing at other targets allowing them to move up close and get in among them. Most common with arty firing into the distance, but also with MGs.

Part of the reason I think it works okay in a turned base game.
Rick

[Nitram Draw]

If the units start next to you then you have had at least one full turn to fire at them if you choose.
When assaulting guns cav is sometimes the best choice because you can move in from a distance and still attack. If I was a gunner I wouldn't wait until they were right next to me to begin firing!

[jonnymacbrown]

"I am reading through a book, fairly detailed at times, on the American attacks in the Meuse-Argonne at the end of the war, and frequently the only time their attacks worked was when the german MGs and arty were firing at other targets allowing them to move up close and get in among them. Most common with arty firing into the distance, but also with MGs."

Hi Rick. I think it's important to recognize that the situation in August-September 1914 was quite different from 1918. In 1914 MGs weighed over 100 pounds, jammed frequently and could only be fired in short bursts. They were set up like artillery with 6-man crews; with fields of fire as a strong point against infantry attack. And that attack was coming; by massed troops in skirmish lines, dressed in red trousers or gray coats with leather piked helmets. In 1918 the German Army had light MGs with single man operators as well as the fearsome Bergmann machine pistol with 32 round clips which, like the Fokker D-VII, was banned by the Treaty of Versailles. That's why in 1918 it was possible to switch fields of fire rapidly. The genius of F14 is not allowing rapid movement/fire/assaults, by the completely simple, yet innovative method of requiring set up time for infantry and infantry support weapons. As for the artillery, and please correct me if I am wrong, the field pieces of 1914 were there as infantry support weapons and generally did not waste ammo on counter-battery fire. Jonny

[Mr Grumpy]

I believe the word Ed used in when he introduced the MG/FG rule was "elegant" and that was a perfect description of a very simple yet effective change IMO. :)

[Glenn Saunders]

I've been reluctant to get involved in any threads on F14 as I have never played the game. However, I needed to jump in here on the remark about MG fire and utilization being different from 1914 to 1918.

Yes - maybe that is the case.

However, I think if you look at the PzC Side of the engine, then you would find fire controls from the earliest war to the latest - I think France '40 to Budapest 45 and considering Allied Fire changes for Bulge and Market Garden would have a greater difference than MG fire from 1914 to 1918.

I know I've read quite a bit about Commonwealth fire control in normandy and later war periods where a lowly sub alteran could call fire and direct VICTOR Class targets using every gun in the Corps - power that was never put in the hands of much higher officers on the Germans and Russian Side. But yet even with this knowledge - it would be difficult to make rules which cover this changing doctrine.

Not every little detail can be modelled by an engine and as a designer I am sure Ed has had many choices to make to model the fighting for WWI. But the arty rules still work OK overall and the results produce the desired effect in the Scns.

I think everyone has to understand that the engine can't do everything for all occasions. And if you don't like the way it works, and you don't like the answer you are hearing from the designer, then you should forward your remarks to HPS Support and not just continue beating a dead horse here.

Glenn

[Ricky B]

I guess this is my fault for replying a bit late, to add my 2 bits of thought. I will clarify one thing and then maybe time to move on - my comments weren't about how they were used, which could vary over time, but strictly that in the heat of combat, no matter how well prepared defenders were, it was, and still is, very common to have a unit fixate on one threat and then another moves in close and assaults without the defenders being aware of the impending threat until too late. Thus you get fire at a more distant target in some cases while the up close threat strikes - not necessarily on purpose either, frequently it is an accident, fortuitous when it does happen, but replicates what happens in the turn quite well.

So not a factor of counter battery fire or anything, strictly a factor that the unit - MG or Arty - is firing at a threat to its left front at 800 meters, while qn infantry unit moves up a ravine to the defender's right front and assaults out of it from 75 meters away and thus doesn't draw much fire, as just one example - the defenders are focused on their current target and when the close in assault strikes the firing units don't even know to shift their fire until too late, whether they have the ability or not.

Rick