P39 Question for Arkan and Akilpio

[Steel God]

Wouldn't the Germans have command of the Air within a couple of days?

One of the often repeated myths about the Polish Campaign was how the Luftwaffe destroyed the Polish Air Force on the ground on Day 1 and then had complete air superiority.  The actual facts are that the Polish Air Force suffered only 7% loss on Day 1 and remained actively in the fight until September 17th when the Red Army attacked Eastern Poland and started over running the air bases there. 

Many of the misconceptions about the Polish Campaign were born out of German propaganda during the war and then repeated over the years by historians, many of them of some repute.

[typhoon]

I really enjoy these sorts of thread and just want to add my little bit. I'm 98 turns into the B version playing the Poles against a highly skilled Axis opponent (this campaign was started in testing before release). Currently the Axis sits on 27000 plus VP points but I have no doubt the game will result in a major Axis win. My Poles are wrecked Lvov and Krakow will fall soon and only Warsaw a bit of the Poznan Army and a few other smaller islands remain for me to cling to so there are lots of VP points available to get the score up to the required amount.
   However even though my Poles will loose I do not feel they were doomed from the start. Yes the mobilisation is poor and part of the game within the game is to get them organised as quick as possible but I made mistakes in my current game and didn't wake up to some of the Polish advantages till turn 50 or so. 
 Mistake one was I tried too hard to hold to as many of the limited victory locations as possible. I should have run faster and sooner.
Mistake two I used the Prussy Army mainly in the North attracted to that area by a gallant defence of a bridge that I never quite managed to blow at Grudiaz. The hope was to destroy Corp Wodrig and much of the German Northern forces that never happened either but it seemed like it was oh so close.
Mistake Three I never really did anything useful with the Poznan Army it should have run fast east but it stayed and though its still fighting a stubborn kind of fight its not doing anything useful.
   Anyway enough of my mistakes here's what's good for the Poles or at least good in my opinion. 
1) and I think this is a big one rail capacity use it use it early use it well it can save your bacon the Germans have no rail capacity the Polish Rail helps them keep up with the Panzers and they can shift units really quickly
2) C quality units use them where possible to pick on the German D quality units once you find them it works.
3) Use the supply sources in the cities you can hold them for a long time if you dig hard and dig fast
There's probably more I could write but I think the Campaigns great as the Campaigns go No over 300 turns it wont last that long but I find most finish long before they are supposed to so this is not unusual there and I feel that this makes playing the Poles much more fun than playing the Soviets in the 41 Campaigns where isolation and casualties account for most German victories. 
  As a P.S just to show the bloody nature of how bad my defeat will be I have suffered over 300 thousand casualties all be it getting about 90 thousand Germans in return. I wont give up till Warsaw falls which is some way off yet. But opponent beware it is defended and yes they are dug in and you cannot isolate them because of its supply source so it will get messy.
P.P.S as Tolkien would say Steel God My German divisions even in this test version started at 100% So I cannot help with what happened there.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

Wouldn't the Germans have command of the Air within a couple of days?

One of the often repeated myths about the Polish Campaign was how the Luftwaffe destroyed the Polish Air Force on the ground on Day 1 and then had complete air superiority.  The actual facts are that the Polish Air Force suffered only 7% loss on Day 1 and remained actively in the fight until September 17th when the Red Army attacked Eastern Poland and started over running the air bases there. 

Many of the misconceptions about the Polish Campaign were born out of German propaganda during the war and then repeated over the years by historians, many of them of some repute.

I knew that.  They gave up the presence early on except near Warsaw.  Mostly all they got were A/C that didn't work for lack of a part or parts that were not yet delivered to give the impression everything was there.  Some really obsolete trainers as well.

[Dog Soldier]

In my experience with P39 so far, it is Polish air interdiction of German units road marching that is an annoying advantage the Polish player has. Casulaties from interdiction are negligible. However, MP loss can screw up an entire division of foot infantry in column on a road. The German infantry spends a good deal of the campaign game marching to catch up to the mobile spearheads. I have had the same divisional column hit two or three times in a single turn breaking up movement of the other units in between where the interdiction happens. Time is what the Polish player needs. The interdiction of road movement helps that as every small cut can add up in the longer term.

Dog Soldier

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

I just don't remember Polish air doing that. I did have a stroke and not all memory is back. So, there is that.

[Steel God]

I really enjoy these sorts of thread and just want to add my little bit. I'm 98 turns into the B version playing the Poles against a highly skilled Axis opponent (this campaign was started in testing before release). Currently the Axis sits on 27000 plus VP points but I have no doubt the game will result in a major Axis win. My Poles are wrecked Lvov and Krakow will fall soon and only Warsaw a bit of the Poznan Army and a few other smaller islands remain for me to cling to so there are lots of VP points available to get the score up to the required amount.
   However even though my Poles will loose I do not feel they were doomed from the start. Yes the mobilisation is poor and part of the game within the game is to get them organised as quick as possible but I made mistakes in my current game and didn't wake up to some of the Polish advantages till turn 50 or so. 
 Mistake one was I tried too hard to hold to as many of the limited victory locations as possible. I should have run faster and sooner.
Mistake two I used the Prussy Army mainly in the North attracted to that area by a gallant defence of a bridge that I never quite managed to blow at Grudiaz. The hope was to destroy Corp Wodrig and much of the German Northern forces that never happened either but it seemed like it was oh so close.
Mistake Three I never really did anything useful with the Poznan Army it should have run fast east but it stayed and though its still fighting a stubborn kind of fight its not doing anything useful.
   Anyway enough of my mistakes here's what's good for the Poles or at least good in my opinion. 
1) and I think this is a big one rail capacity use it use it early use it well it can save your bacon the Germans have no rail capacity the Polish Rail helps them keep up with the Panzers and they can shift units really quickly
2) C quality units use them where possible to pick on the German D quality units once you find them it works.
3) Use the supply sources in the cities you can hold them for a long time if you dig hard and dig fast
There's probably more I could write but I think the Campaigns great as the Campaigns go No over 300 turns it wont last that long but I find most finish long before they are supposed to so this is not unusual there and I feel that this makes playing the Poles much more fun than playing the Soviets in the 41 Campaigns where isolation and casualties account for most German victories. 
  As a P.S just to show the bloody nature of how bad my defeat will be I have suffered over 300 thousand casualties all be it getting about 90 thousand Germans in return. I wont give up till Warsaw falls which is some way off yet. But opponent beware it is defended and yes they are dug in and you cannot isolate them because of its supply source so it will get messy.
P.P.S as Tolkien would say Steel God My German divisions even in this test version started at 100% So I cannot help with what happened there.

I've always enjoyed these types of discussions as well.

Your statement that you are playing a game that was begun during testing sparks me to mention a glaring limitation in play testing, and that is the Campaigns never get a real work out, and thus, while they're the most interesting to play, they are also generally the most unbalanced.  The Campaigns are not shorted on testing for any reason other than practical limitations; when they're started they frequently need to be re-started because testing produces changes in versions of the software, and there simply isn't the necessary time to play test 200 or so turns, especially H2H which is where the testing is most required (I am still dumbfounded that Solo play against the AI is the primary Customer base of WDS by a wide margin, but they say that is the case so it must be so).  The game we are playing is the A version (and yes the Germans were set to 80% at start, which I have concluded was simply an error, but no explanation has been offered by WDS nor appears ever will be), and despite that limitation we are standing at roughly 15% of the VPs needed for a Major with 15% of the time allotted consumed - so tracking well one would say, although I suspect we're going to miss that short changed 20% before the end of things.  

Your assessment of your mistakes dove tails nicely to some of the things I have seen in the game and decided "what I would do were I playing the Poles".  I have pointed out to our stalwart Polish opponent that successfully defending an expiring 200VP objective and losing 1000VPs worth of troops in the process isn't a bargain.  In CGs I frequently play with objectives off because unless they are an appreciable part of the points needed (those multi1000 point objectives) I don't want some dot on a map influencing my ability to look at a map operationally and deciding based on terrain what the best way forward (or backward) may be.  Force preservation is Commandment Number 1 in Steel God's War Gaming Bible -"remember these are people not pixels and you'll spend their lives much less carelessly."

[Steel God]

I just don't remember Polish air doing that.  I did have a stroke and not all memory is back.  So, there is that.

OJW - first of all, very sorry to hear of your Health Issues - I hope your recovery is speedy and complete.  None of us is getting any younger for damn sure.

You're correct that the Polish AF was completely outclassed in both numbers and types of aircraft available to them, but they were stubborn and resolute, and fought tenaciously.  The Poles did not operate their Air Force in the same manner as the Germans with Independent Air Fleets, but rather parceled out their Fighters, Bombers and Recon aircraft directly to the individual Armies, so their impacts were limited and localized, but did happen and were a result of direct efforts by the Poles to Interdict Traffic along the roads, especially at choke points like Tunnels and Bridges.  I think the PDT value of 2% for Interdiction gives the right flavor. When you're moving around 600,000 troops on a giant map that 2% is going to seem like it's happening a lot more often than it really is.  Overall I like the effect, any friction that can be thrown in the German machine is a good one.

[ShipwreckedFool]

I wonder if any of the game designers for the newer games would be willing to push out balance patches for the campaign scenarios as more and more games are completed? In my mind it would be a great thing to have the campaigns become higher and higher quality as they are continuously refined through play. The reality is that there are so many variables to the big scenarios and of course it is challenging to adequately playtest them, but still these are the most rewarding scenarios.

To your point Steel God, I might have to start playing with objectives off too! There are plenty of maps with a few 100-250 point objectives spread out across them, and yet the total force VP is 20,000+ Clearly there are better things to be focusing on!