F 14 Anomalous Combat Results

jonnymacbrown · 06-02-2011, 05:19 AM,

Last year I was defending a hex with valuable troops who came under normal bombardment and suffered losses way out of proportion to anything that had happened in the game previously. I was forced to give up the hex as it kept happening.

Yesterday, in a different game, I had something similar happen: I got driven out of a hex and wanted to retake it. I bombarded the enemy (two full 1000 man battalions of the 19th Reserve Division), disordered them and assaulted with 1000 C rated Corps troops with 9 assault factor. The CRT was attacker loses 54 defender loses 960 with the attacker loses the assault. Next I went in with Zouaves; 1200 men A rated 11 assault and drove the enemy away but with a normal result; attacker loses 55 defender loses 90. I completed my move and sent the turn back to my opponent. However perplexed I opened the game again and tried the same assault with similar results; only this time the Corps troops had a normal result and the Zouave assault was c. 50/900 and they lost it, just like in the original turn; the loser winning 50/900. I sent the file to a friend and he tried it on his computer; same kind of results. I've been playing a lot of F 14 the past year and I've never seen anything like this. Any thoughts? jonny :conf:

**Ricky B** · 06-02-2011, 05:31 AM,

First thought, with the defender losses in the "lost" assault, is that the defenders "lost" but were unable to retreat due to stacking limits, thus losing an extra 50% of their strength on top of the assault/melee losses.

Easy way to check, the defender will ALWAYS give up the hex if they are disrupted, and at least one attacking unit does NOT disrupt, and the defenders have a hex to retreat to - the hex is either out of enemy ZOC, or occupied by a friendly unit with room under the stacking limit to move into.

At least this is true if there is no bug, and I have never seen one. Anyway, in this situation, assuming it applies, if the defender is disrupted, and the attacker didn't disrupt but didn't move into the defender hex, then it should be because the defender couldn't retreat from the hex so suffered the extra 50% loss - so check the attackers to see if they disrupted, if not, then you have the reason. If they are disrupting in the failed attack, then something odd is happening to cause thehuge defender losses.

Rick

jonnymacbrown · (This post was last modified: 06-02-2011, 06:10 AM by jonnymacbrown.)

(06-02-2011, 05:31 AM)Ricky B Wrote: First thought, with the defender losses in the "lost" assault, is that the defenders "lost" but were unable to retreat due to stacking limits, thus losing an extra 50% of their strength on top of the assault/melee losses.

Easy way to check, the defender will ALWAYS give up the hex if they are disrupted, and at least one attacking unit does NOT disrupt, and the defenders have a hex to retreat to - the hex is either out of enemy ZOC, or occupied by a friendly unit with room under the stacking limit to move into.

At least this is true if there is no bug, and I have never seen one. Anyway, in this situation, assuming it applies, if the defender is disrupted, and the attacker didn't disrupt but didn't move into the defender hex, then it should be because the defender couldn't retreat from the hex so suffered the extra 50% loss - so check the attackers to see if they disrupted, if not, then you have the reason. If they are disrupting in the failed attack, then something odd is happening to cause thehuge defender losses.

Rick

Both defenders were disrupted before the attack. They had a retreat hex, and did retreat when finally assaulted by the Zouaves. jonny :conf:

"the hex is either out of enemy ZOC, or occupied by a friendly unit with room under the stacking limit to move into."

Ok I see the problem now: The attacking Germans were over-stacked to the rear; so the 2 full battalions of defending Germans had, in effect, no retreat hex. Thanks for the help! jonny Big Grin

**Ricky B** · 06-02-2011, 06:10 AM,

Are you sure? There were none of their own units present? If you would like send me the file, before anyway, and I can look at it and see if I can explain the results. Especially right before the assault if you have that one.

Thanks
Rick

jonnymacbrown · 06-02-2011, 06:31 AM,

(06-02-2011, 06:10 AM)Ricky B Wrote: Are you sure? There were none of their own units present? If you would like send me the file, before anyway, and I can look at it and see if I can explain the results. Especially right before the assault if you have that one.

Thanks
Rick

File sent. The Germans look over-stacked to the rear. jonny :smoke:

**Ricky B** · 06-02-2011, 06:35 AM,

Thanks for the file Jonny - I will look it over - but if there are a lot of Germans in the hex immediately behind them, then I expect that to be the cause. The units can't retreat into an overstack, so they lose half, then the second assault works as the loss of half their strength drops them enough to "squeeze" into the retreat hex. I will check it tonight if time permits and post what I find, thanks!

Rick

jonnymacbrown · 06-02-2011, 06:42 AM,

(06-02-2011, 06:35 AM)Ricky B Wrote: Thanks for the file Jonny - I will look it over - but if there are a lot of Germans in the hex immediately behind them, then I expect that to be the cause. The units can't retreat into an overstack, so they lose half, then the second assault works as the loss of half their strength drops them enough to "squeeze" into the retreat hex. I will check it tonight if time permits and post what I find, thanks!

Rick

Thanks. I think that's exactly what happened; since the results are reproducible. :cheeky:

**Ricky B** · 06-02-2011, 09:38 AM,

Yes, and it is a stacking limit issue causing an extra 50% in losses. The assaulted stack has around 1900 men, stacking limit is 4200. There are 2 possible retreat hexes, one that has more than 3000 Germans in it, so a retreat there would be at least 4900 men, so a no go. The other might be close - there are 2 XXXX manpower units plus 3 MG units and 1 arty unit. If the MG and arty units are at 70% strength, then there has to be at least 2400 stacking points in that hex, add in another 1900 and it is at 4300, or 100 men over the limit, so instead of retreating the stack loses an extra 50% of its strength.

Thanks for the file!

Rick

FM WarB · 06-02-2011, 11:46 PM,

This combat result presents a very useful tactical hint. Thanks! (I was the fellow who also puzzled over the result not noticing the stack to the rear caused it.)

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 06-03-2011, 08:42 AM by Volcano Man.)

Yes, be sure to allow some retreat space to the rear. I am notorious for overloading the second line so that the first line cannot retreat (I did it a lot as the Russians in a K43 campaign in PzC).

A good thing to do is hold the right mouse button over the hex information area and you can see a number in the center which tells you the current stacking value. Compare that with hexes to the rear, and again with the stack limit in the parameter file and be sure to leave enough of a difference to adhere to the latter.