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M4/M16 overrated in Modern War? - Printable Version

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M4/M16 overrated in Modern War? - HirooOnoda - 02-22-2014

Hello!

I don't have the SB title, "Modern War". I wish I did, but that is another story.

My question is, I assume and correct me if I'm wrong, that the M4/M16 rifles are rated "B", when I believe they should be rated "C".

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/20/cover-up-army-historian-says-report-on-deadly-afgh/

Also, we saw the same thing in the battle of Nasiriyah when every weapon, not just the M4s and '16s, jammed and were rendered inoperable (for the 507th).

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site525/2013/0322/20130322_115947_aar507ambush.pdf

Opinions?

RE: M4/M16 overrated in Modern War? - Jeff Conner - 02-22-2014

They are actually both "A" rated. Given the amount of dust and sand as well as the propensity to carry them with the bolts locked open to show they are unloaded, this does seem kind of high given some of the horror stories to come out of both Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe someone could ask Joao to review this for the next update?

RE: M4/M16 overrated in Modern War? - burroughs - 02-22-2014

Without mentioning M-16A1 early in Vietnam - in his "Blood on the Risers" Leppelman wrote about am ambush site he saw where a squad was down - out of a two digit number of assault rifles he collected there a vast majority jammed early into the fire fight.

By the way - any idea why in both SB Vietnam and ToD the squads start at seemingly full strength with no regards to the stage of war? I'd say that the platoons should get really understrength at least circa 1970 if not earlier.

RE: M4/M16 overrated in Modern War? - TheBigRedOne - 02-25-2014

Interesting read:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/20/cover-up-army-historian-says-report-on-deadly-afgh/

RE: M4/M16 overrated in Modern War? - Richie61 - 02-25-2014

Yeah and we should be surprised that the government is covering up the design flaws in the 5.56 AR/ M4 Carbine platform.

It's a no brainer that the short carbine barrels over heat and the magazine
has feed issues.

And you wonder why the M-14 (7.62x51) is coming back the the EBR system Wink Pistol drive system, thicker barrels (cooling) and no feed
issues Big Grin

[Image: ebr-soldier.jpg]

RE: M4/M16 overrated in Modern War? - Outlaw Josey Wales - 02-25-2014

I was Infantry 78-82, Reserves 82-84, Infantry again 91-95 and National Guard 95-97. The first time I was in, I used the M16A1 and never had a jam. The second time I used M16A2, liked it better for the 3 round burst over full auto in the A1 and never had a jam. If kept relativiely clean and oiled, should almost never be a problem. Anything past that I would say was because of the climate it was being used in and most likely not properly designed for it.

RE: M4/M16 overrated in Modern War? - Richie61 - 02-25-2014

M16A1 (bottom) vs M4 (top)

Note barrels
Magazine shape and feed.

[Image: m16a1_vs_m4_modded_by_helljumpergrif-d4e2ag2.jpg]

M16A was a better system. M-14 was better Wink

RE: M4/M16 overrated in Modern War? - burroughs - 02-25-2014

(02-25-2014, 02:41 AM)Outlaw Josey Wales Wrote: I was Infantry 78-82, Reserves 82-84, Infantry again 91-95 and National Guard 95-97. The first time I was in, I used the M16A1 and never had a jam. The second time I used M16A2, liked it better for the 3 round burst over full auto in the A1 and never had a jam. If kept relativiely clean and oiled, should almost never be a problem. Anything past that I would say was because of the climate it was being used in and most likely not properly designed for it.

Sure - Gen. Tony Zinni is his "Battle Ready" claims that when he used to serve with the South Vietnamese marines and rangers as an adviser, they used to take care of their issue M-16A1 on a regular basis and were doing that properly so the jamming problem was virtually non existent. But it was a problem in Vietnam and obviously the climate should have been taken into consideration, but it took time and casualties.

RE: M4/M16 overrated in Modern War? - TheBigRedOne - 02-25-2014

I thought the M-4 was designed more for urban type combat. The shorter barrel length made acquiring targets and maneuvering in tight spaces easier. Imagine trying to swing around the corner of a room with an M-14. The muzzle would get there 10 minutes before you would!

That said, the stopping power of the M-14 can't be denied, just ask Pvt. Pyle.

RE: M4/M16 overrated in Modern War? - Richie61 - 02-25-2014

(02-25-2014, 03:24 AM)TheBigRedOne Wrote: I thought the M-4 was designed more for urban type combat. The shorter barrel length made acquiring targets and maneuvering in tight spaces easier. Imagine trying to swing around the corner of a room with an M-14. The muzzle would get there 10 minutes before you would!

That said, the stopping power of the M-14 can't be denied, just ask Pvt. Pyle.

You are correct about the reason for the shorter barrel. Wink

M1A (M14)
I really enjoy mine at the range too LOL
[Image: EdM1A_zpse91e94e3.jpg]