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Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Combat Mission (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=10) +--- Thread: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... (/showthread.php?tid=42041) |
RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - RedDevil - 09-01-2007 I think it's just going round and round here now :) We're not debating the cause and effects of clickies, it's simply a discussion between 2 people now, the rest of the panel left and went fishing and you're heading out for diapers and formula.. This small debate hasn't generated attention in terms of gaining momentum for any changes of the current system, which I think you weren't looking to do anyways, but the problem is that any changes WOULD affect the entire club's Forums. I've received comments from other staffers wondering why it's even being considered since it's only a complaint about not being able to give multiple clickies to everyone, which was an abuse issue in the old system. I agree with them that, just because a few people on the CM forums say they are not posting here anymore because of the clickie system change, and want\ need change and review of the system, is simply not going to happen. edit**** We're discussing it now however, and we might do a poll And yes, I did receive quite a few emails on the old rep system and I went after those who were causing issues, and they weren't just from you know who. :) You're presented a fair say, up to a point, about the clickie issues, but in review, it's only about you and your buddies "having fun" with the system. Which really is the same as saying you're not posting here anymore, because you can't "abuse" (pervert, I think you said) a feature of the forums to your satisfaction. By "Abuse", I don't mean in a manner of extreme-ness, the abuse you were doing, was somewhat harmless to a point, but becoming a nuisance and developing into a distraction on the CM forum. I didn't mind for a bit, but I came to realize that instead of using the CM forums for CM gaming discussions, it was becoming a spot to harbor all things not associated with CM and this was in fact, not fair or appropriate to the CM community here. If you want a forums for insane and useless banter topics, I can make that happen. :) My only concerns are the maturity level and topics that might appear there and how to effectively moderate it to keep posting active without having to hang people every week. :kill: Oh well, back on track here about clickies.. I'm only guessing here, but the rest of the club seems happy about the current clickies system situation. I'd have to agree with them. In the long run, the Rep points will sort out as members overcome the hurdles of the system limits and make it work as it should or as they "think" it should The CM community will still be here as well, chugging along. :) RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - McIvan - 09-02-2007 Quote:What is the benefit of starting everyone over from scratch with the new system? Coil wasn't arguing for starting from scratch, and nor was I. What was suggested was that everyone's rep points should be calculated using the new system's parameters. Let's take a hypothetical......someone's picked up 80 points under the old system, with about half of those from the same four people and the rest from another twenty individuals. Under the new system, they'd have 24 max, not 80. Getting 80 would be real hard, if not impossible. Coil is pointing out certain individuals, like me, have kept the old multiple-vote total even though the reality under the new system would be far lower. Only new members are restricted to one rep point per member. It's a blatantly fixed system in favour of the old-timers....you can try, but you can't "win". Does it really not seem unfair that I can keep all the multiple rep points from individuals, but no other member can have any more than one from the same person :conf: RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - McIvan - 09-02-2007 RedDevil Wrote:I've received comments from other staffers wondering why it's even being considered since it's only a complaint about not being able to give multiple clickies to everyone, which was an abuse issue in the old system.Agree, however I think it was a very minor abuse issue (so far as I know). The issue I guess is whether it was more beneficial than aggravating. Quote:I agree with them that, just because a few people on the CM forums say they are not posting here anymore because of the clickie system change, and want\ need change and review of the system, is simply not going to happen. I think that's an unfair dismissal of the well reasoned posts made by The Coil. There were a number of good points made quite early on with regard to multiple clickies which seem to have been forgotten, with the Coil simply referring back to them on one occasion rather than repeating, which he might have been better off doing. Refer to pages one and two. To post one example: Quote:From Coil's posts1) Clickies serve a valuable purpose in providing feedback to forum conversations. When you post something about tactics, or an AAR, or just some thought you had about CM, you never really know if other people are reading it, or what they think about it. One of the problems with a forum like this is it's hard to judge how other people are reacting to something you post, particularly because most people read way more than they post. Clickies were a valuable way to provide and receive feedback - when you post something, and 2 or 3 people green clicky you for it, it gives you a way to judge people's response to it. With the new system, there's really no motivation to clicky someone, especially if you already have in the past, so you (or I, anyway) tend to not give out clickies at all anymore, thus robbing the boards of a feedback mechanism that I think is pretty vital to lively interaction. Now, you might say that there is still feedback - you can (and people do) post their responses in the thread. Sure, but nobody wants to read a bunch of posts that say "Yup, I agree" or whatever. Clickies were an efficient back channel way to provide feedback with a minimum of effort and clutter. Quote:edit**** We're discussing it now however, and we might do a poll Those emails (afaik) were from people getting unjustified neg reps against harmless posts. Remains to be seen whether they'l be mollified by only one red clickie....because one red now counts for a lot more than it used to. Quote:You're presented a fair say, up to a point, about the clickie issues, but in review, it's only about you and your buddies "having fun" with the system. Which really is the same as saying you're not posting here anymore, because you can't "abuse" (pervert, I think you said) a feature of the forums to your satisfaction. By "Abuse", I don't mean in a manner of extreme-ness, the abuse you were doing, was somewhat harmless to a point, but becoming a nuisance and developing into a distraction on the CM forum. I think this does not bear close resemblance to the reality of the forum with Coil/Col T and Leto in full swing. We stepped in on the only occasion where clickie talk looked even vaguely like getting out of control. Generally it was just amusing banter, and there is plenty of room on the forum for that. Far from deterring anyone, it seemed to spark the forum somewhat, making it a more lively place, in my personal opinion. Quote: I don't understand this one....what things not associated with CM? While clickie banter took on somewhat of a life of its own, it didn't seem to stray into non-CM associated topics...it was either its own little world or it was in connection with CM threads or DARs. Quote:Oh well, back on track here about clickies.. My guess would be that they don't care (at least, not enough to post about it), not that they're actively happy as such. They'll probably continue not to care if the system changes back :) Quote:In the long run, the Rep points will sort out as members overcome the hurdles of the system limits and make it work as it should or as they "think" it shouldDisagree and agree, respectively per para, because, as mentioned, I think the community mostly aren't terribly fussed. Personally I would like to see the old system restored with the following changes, for those persons that do have an interest in the system, whether their interest be mild or high: 1. Rep points are no longer anonymous 2. Rep points for any one person are limited to one per day. Look forward to seeing the poll.....would also like to have some input into the poll questions (which, as pollsters will tell you, can often inadvertently pre-determine the answer). RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - RedDevil - 09-02-2007 McIvan, on your comments: Abuse is still abuse and requires maintenance from someone to resolve. Difficult to consider abuse beneficial, but I do see where multiple rewarding can be stimulating for a different reason. Coil gave some good posts, but there are holes in his theory. The main problem is that he's the only one making them (well it's not a real problem :whis:) and he's already stated he's not interested in a club wide survey and has no time to generate club wide effort. Any changes to the system involves the entire club, only reasonable to suggest the entire club be involved. He is stating the obvious in his post, "when 2 or 3 people give you a CLICKIE" then you are getting feedback from different people, which is how a reputation is developed. Reputation is the opinion (more technically, a social evaluation) of the public toward a person, a group of people, or an organization. It is an important factor in many fields, such as business, online communities or social status. How is a multiple clickie from the same person benefiting? I don't see it "benefiting" to one's reputation, only "rewarding" to one's Ego. It is not a public opinion, which is given by many different people, only 1 man's view and therefore unbalancing in the act of deciding the public reputation of a person. A large reputation should be noticeable if a person has influenced more people with their actions, not because you've impressed 1 person. You won't get nominated by the political party of your choice because you've made a good impression on your best friend. You've got to convince many other people your reputation is worthy of their backing. By looking at the # of times a post was viewed the member gets an idea of how many are reading and if his time is worth the postings. clickies have nothing to do with the # of views, which is a stronger indicator of how much interest is aroused by your post, since most readers don't leave clickie feedback. In regards to lively interaction based on clickie giving, I find that funny since the only ones generating lively interaction are POS, with his complaining about being red repped and the following members, the coil, hirr leto and colT. There are no other lively interactions other than the discussions between these few and those very few who comment upon their threads once in a while. The only place this "interaction" is taking place or seems to have effect, is here on the CM forum and by the same 3 people. So it is reasonable to state that clickies are not generating any such effect on an other forum and with reasonable deduction, any other members. Taking a look around, there is very little CM topic discussion going on at the following sites, Waw, Gamesquad, FMJ, kampfgruppe, the only site generating major CM talk is TPG and that's mainly designer and playtesting talk, at a CM only site. Based upon this survey, it is fairly reasonable to state that CM based topics are slowly dwindling down. It is also safe to say that CM forums everywhere are slowing down, in regards to CM topic posts. DAR and AAR reports had their fun in the sun recently, they have fallen off a great bit, but I believe that's due to player's RL issues, not clickie fever. Tactical posts are down, that's somewhat related to POS's ego trip about red rep points he earned fair and square. It's also related to the members being diluted with just about every conceivable tactic and strategy in CM, with little left to expand upon. Once you have it all, it's very hard to grow, outside of experience related discussions. I don't see this is because of Clickie fever. Personally, I've wondered if there is even any reasons to discuss the matter and have taken liberty to provide input on what I see as a stirring of the pot mainly, but with reasonable doubt that it is actually something many people want. I don't want to look as the only naysayer here or shooting the idea down here, but in all regards, the discussion is really only based on the whims of 3 people with little substance outside of "fun interacting clickie perversion between friends" Irregardless of how I see the birth, development and sustained debate on the matter, I do feel a look into a combination of both systems might get satisfaction from a large number of members, which is the goal here. One more thing that is missing from the new system is a reference, a sort of tie to a post or thread, that shows the receiving member what he is being rewarded for. Again, it's all irreverent if Raz can't make coding changes that don't upset the security of the forums.. Once we hear from him, we'll have something to go on. RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - The Coil - 09-03-2007 Ok, I said I was done...I lied. If POS can do it, so can I... :) Several quick (I promise) points: 1) McIvan is the very voice of reason. Listen to him, he speaks truth. 2) There are really 2 discussions going on in this thread, and they have often become mixed together, leading to a lack of clarity, I think. Discussion 1 involves how clickies should function as a part of these boards. Discussion 2 involves how they actually did function. Discussion 1 is a command decision by those running the boards based on their vision of the type of community they are trying to create. Discussion 2 is the one I was trying to have. You may think they way they were functioning is bad, or stupid, or whatever. I'm just observing how that function did work, and that I thought that function was valuable. Whether or not it should continue to function that way, or whether that function was beneficial is for someone else to decide. 3) McIvan sort of said this already (voice of reason he is, did I mention that?), but I'm not saying talk about clickies was valuable in and of itself, and that the clicky talk was the only real chatter happening on the boards. Rather, clickies spurred other, relevant posts. There weren't many "clicky talk only" threads. It was interspersed throughout a lot of interesting and informative threads about CM. Except for that one time when /hirr/Leto went nuts. But you'll have that sometimes... 4) RD, you said: RedDevil Wrote:Taking a look around, there is very little CM topic discussion going on at the following sites, Waw, Gamesquad, FMJ, kampfgruppe, the only site generating major CM talk is TPG and that's mainly designer and playtesting talk, at a CM only site. I've made this point several times myself...I'm not sure why you'd make it again as an argument for the new clickies. The Blitz was different while old clickies were around, it was the one lively board for a while. Now it's the same as the rest, "dwindling down". Clickies were spurring discussion about many CM related topics. Now there is no such discussion about much of anything. You seem to view this as inevitable or desireable or something. Those other boards were just as dead while the clickie talk was going on, so I don't think you can attribute it to people going on vacation or whatever. Anyway, at least the Blitz isn't so dead that we're having discussions about other boards' clickie systems... ;) 5) It seems crazy to me to suggest clickies didn't spur more posting. Do a quick search of the word "clickie" (or clicky, or clickies). To suggest there would have been as many posts without the clickie talk strikes me as an opinion trying to make itself fact. 6) It is equally absurd to try to make the whole clickie thing about me, #hirr#Leto, and Col T. Sure, we were probably the popularizers, but there was way more to it than just the 3 of us handing clickies to each other (I actually don't think there are any old clickies on my rep from *hirr*Leto). !hirr!Leto actually jumped into the clickie thing pretty late. It was a way more widespread thing. For instance, a quick look at my rep sheet shows silly and superfluous clickies, given for reasons outside the stated purpose of the rep system, from: Fubar Cillmhor Fullhouse Fluidwill Bluehand Bootie ATCS Kineas Nort Peek McIvan (wise, he is) and... REDDEVIL!!!!!!!! (really!) Apparently the perversion of the rep system was a little wider spread than you've been willing to admit, RD...  And that's not even counting all the people who didn't give reasons (but gave them for silly ones), and all the people whose clickies were erased (it was a lot of them). And that's just ones I got.Now it may be that the decision from on high is that we should clamp down on that "abuse" of the clickie system, and that if doing negatively affects the post count, so be it, because it's inevitable that the CM board is going to die regardless. Like I said, what clickies should be is beyond my ability to affect. I just though it was interesting what they had become. Anyway, I'm gone for real now...promise...I won't keep coming back like Piece of Spike does... Edit: Oh yeah, and point 7) If this is true: RedDevil Wrote:By looking at the # of times a post was viewed the member gets an idea of how many are reading and if his time is worth the postings. clickies have nothing to do with the # of views, which is a stronger indicator of how much interest is aroused by your post, since most readers don't leave clickie feedback Then there is plenty of interest in the subject of clickies, judging by the post count of this thread... RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - McIvan - 09-03-2007 Although it might seem otherwise I agree with a lot of what Randy has to say....tis only the cumulative shadings and the overall conclusion that I mildy disagree with. It's not a big big deal to me. I don't need clickies to encourage me to post. I happily posted at The Blitz before clickies existed and will keep doing so. They were just kind of a nice bonus.....and the feedback did, in fact, lead me to edit some intemperate posts and think a bit more before posting. I liked the old clickie system better than I like this one so far, for reasons of being able to reward POSTS rather than POSTERS, to give a cumulative opinion of a member's contributions to the forum built up over time, whether those contributions were CM related posts or posts that entertained the reader. Sure CM related material is dwindling...that's neither here nor there. Sure three posters contributed most of the clicky talk, but there were definitely spinoffs from it and my perception....which is all it can be, there ain't no scientific measurement here.....is that it contributed to a livelier forum with somewhat more CM related stuff thrown in and more people posting, even if only ocasionally. I quite liked the atmosphere that resulted. Again, it's not a big big deal to me. Be interested to see what Raz has to say. RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - RedDevil - 09-03-2007 The Coil Wrote:REDDEVIL!!!!!!!! (really!) Sorry mate, But I gave you a rep point for playing a pretty good game and it is in my message. I don't see how this is perversion of the system, or labels me as intwined in the clickie horror show. I gave you a rep point because you were a reputable player in my book. By listing everyone who gave you a rep point, you're now saying we're all inclusive of perversion now? This might change the way some of those perversion-ators feel about you, knowing you're walking off the pier with a parachute....:conf: You're starting to unravel some good points by taking your posts to the personal level instead of generalizing the issue or staying on focus of the debatable areas of the issue, namely benefits and overall club desire. Again, it is strangely controversial that the problem only exists on the CM forum and only a few CM posters are leaving because of it. As Ivan says, I don't need clickies to encourage me to post here either and anyone who does.. they're prolly not going to be missed in the long run. I think this whole clickie debate has past its usefulness at this junction. We've all said our points and counter points, now it's out of our hands and the future of any new development resides in the programmers skills RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - PoorOldSpike - 09-03-2007 Incidentally I hope the fact that I'm still around at Blitz doesn't give the impression that I'm softening towards the rep system. As I've said before, I'm only having to hang around to tend my Pripet Tourney thread, and once it's finished I'm outta here for good,because I hate the way the clicky system reduces the once-mighty Blitz to kindergarten level. For example I got hit with a 'minus 2' clicky only recently because according to him I'm "an S.O.B". Pity I'm leaving, because I'd only scratched the surface of what I intended to do at Blitz (with Randy's approval) such as create a string of fast-moving little tourneys,team games, a simple uncluttered neat mini-ladder ladder using the inbuilt handicap system, exciting quizzes and competitions, photo sections, video sections, special short knockout challenges, a scenario design annexe and so on, and buy trophies and medals to award out of my own pocket. That input would have made members feel good and proud by being in the Blitz, in much the same way as they'd feel good by being in an elite military unit, rather than in a playschool.. ;) Hey, when I joined Proving Grounds about 3 years ago their membership stood at 1800, then I began posting in their Design and Playtest sections and membership soared to around 6700, there's a moral there somewhere.. Oh and they don't have a rep system, so I don't get called a son-of-a-bitch there.. ;) PANTHER MOVING TO HULLDOWN ![[Image: pan-hulldA.jpg]](http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub2/pan-hulldA.jpg)
RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - McIvan - 09-03-2007 You got a neutral from that bloke, Spike....it was him that had the -2 reputation, which says it all really...he had a loose mouth and got punished for it. If he was still posting (he left in a huff) I'd have a word with him about that comment. There's no better place, I think, for you to do your good works than here. But if the clickie system is insurmountable for you, then so be it. RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - PoorOldSpike - 09-03-2007 McIvan Wrote:You got a neutral from that bloke....But if the clickie system is insurmountable for you, then so be it. Yeah but he still called me an s.o.b.. :) Look why don't we all stop talking and do a simple poll asking the question -"Do you want the rep system to go, Y/N" then we'll all know once and for all where we stand. |
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