How exactly scenario designers calculate how many personel should be in various infantry units in the game?
Seems that the number of men in these units in the game differs from actual TOE of battalions/companies. It means that some elements/assets are not presented in such units.
So, which elements are not included normally?
You may need to be more specific as to what you are seeing and questioning.
The various games may have units that start with the approximate TOE for that unit size, and then the unit is weakened to what records show it had at the start of the scenario, or at least an estimated average. More common is the units start at whatever strength they had at the start of the overall battle, or again more likely an average for a division, or the entire army.
Then there is the impact of crew served weapons and how they are represented in the specific game.
Either way, the strength is generally just the combat arms - so mechanics, logistics, etc aren't represented at all, unless the unit formed a combat force in the battle.
Rick
(12-17-2021, 02:55 PM)Ricky B Wrote: [ -> ]You may need to be more specific as to what you are seeing and questioning.
The various games may have units that start with the approximate TOE for that unit size, and then the unit is weakened to what records show it had at the start of the scenario, or at least an estimated average. More common is the units start at whatever strength they had at the start of the overall battle, or again more likely an average for a division, or the entire army.
Then there is the impact of crew served weapons and how they are represented in the specific game.
Either way, the strength is generally just the combat arms - so mechanics, logistics, etc aren't represented at all, unless the unit formed a combat force in the battle.
Rick
I've played plenty of scenarios where my units started at 75 or 80% (game) TOE size, due to circumstances.
(12-17-2021, 02:55 PM)Ricky B Wrote: [ -> ]You may need to be more specific as to what you are seeing and questioning.
The various games may have units that start with the approximate TOE for that unit size, and then the unit is weakened to what records show it had at the start of the scenario, or at least an estimated average. More common is the units start at whatever strength they had at the start of the overall battle, or again more likely an average for a division, or the entire army.
Then there is the impact of crew served weapons and how they are represented in the specific game.
Either way, the strength is generally just the combat arms - so mechanics, logistics, etc aren't represented at all, unless the unit formed a combat force in the battle.
Rick
I'm about infantry units that have 100%.
E.g. Stalingrad'42 scenario 23 July, there are some fresh formed Soviet Rifle divisions that have Rifle battalions (305 men 100%) at start. Now I look on official TOE and there is number 709 men total.
So I need to count only elements like rifle squads, MG squads, AT squads? What about commanders of various levels, their assistants/deputies?
(12-17-2021, 04:39 PM)Dreamslayer_spb Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2021, 02:55 PM)Ricky B Wrote: [ -> ]You may need to be more specific as to what you are seeing and questioning.
The various games may have units that start with the approximate TOE for that unit size, and then the unit is weakened to what records show it had at the start of the scenario, or at least an estimated average. More common is the units start at whatever strength they had at the start of the overall battle, or again more likely an average for a division, or the entire army.
Then there is the impact of crew served weapons and how they are represented in the specific game.
Either way, the strength is generally just the combat arms - so mechanics, logistics, etc aren't represented at all, unless the unit formed a combat force in the battle.
Rick
I'm about infantry units that have 100%.
E.g. Stalingrad'42 scenario 23 July, there are some fresh formed Soviet Rifle divisions that have Rifle battalions (305 men 100%) at start. Now I look on official TOE and there is number 709 men total.
So I need to count only elements like rifle squads, MG squads, AT squads? What about commanders of various levels, their assistants/deputies?
Hi there,
You can't look at strengths in game that way unfortunately.
We do start with the TOE and as Rick suggests remove the non-combat troops. These are usually grouped in the HQ companies. The next step is the most important. We normally look at the highest strength of the units during the period simulated and set that usually as the upper limit (100%) of a unit. Why? Because the recovery mechanism in game will add men until the in game strength is reached. I had the issue when I created Moscow '42 of putting all units in at full TO&E and that resulted in the German battalions recovering from 240 men to 900 men battalions in the quiet sectors. This was a-historic and resulted in the Germans having many more men than they should have. A subsequent patch reduced the upper limit for each unit to 400 men. You would be unable to reconcile that number to the TO&E.
I hope that explains a little more.
David
(12-17-2021, 10:30 PM)Strela Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2021, 04:39 PM)Dreamslayer_spb Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2021, 02:55 PM)Ricky B Wrote: [ -> ]You may need to be more specific as to what you are seeing and questioning.
The various games may have units that start with the approximate TOE for that unit size, and then the unit is weakened to what records show it had at the start of the scenario, or at least an estimated average. More common is the units start at whatever strength they had at the start of the overall battle, or again more likely an average for a division, or the entire army.
Then there is the impact of crew served weapons and how they are represented in the specific game.
Either way, the strength is generally just the combat arms - so mechanics, logistics, etc aren't represented at all, unless the unit formed a combat force in the battle.
Rick
I'm about infantry units that have 100%.
E.g. Stalingrad'42 scenario 23 July, there are some fresh formed Soviet Rifle divisions that have Rifle battalions (305 men 100%) at start. Now I look on official TOE and there is number 709 men total.
So I need to count only elements like rifle squads, MG squads, AT squads? What about commanders of various levels, their assistants/deputies?
Hi there,
You can't look at strengths in game that way unfortunately.
We do start with the TOE and as Rick suggests remove the non-combat troops. These are usually grouped in the HQ companies. The next step is the most important. We normally look at the highest strength of the units during the period simulated and set that usually as the upper limit (100%) of a unit. Why? Because the recovery mechanism in game will add men until the in game strength is reached. I had the issue when I created Moscow '42 of putting all units in at full TO&E and that resulted in the German battalions recovering from 240 men to 900 men battalions in the quiet sectors. This was a-historic and resulted in the Germans having many more men than they should have. A subsequent patch reduced the upper limit for each unit to 400 men. You would be unable to reconcile that number to the TO&E.
I hope that explains a little more.
David
I understand the case about units that have losses or that have much less personel than 100% of normal TOE.
But I'm about units that actually have 100% or very close to it.
I research atm about July 1942 battles on Stalingrad direction. There was fresh (that was almostly close to 100% strength of personel) Soviet divisions of 62nd Army. These divisions used latest on that date Soviet shtat (TOE) 04/200. So it is possible to get understanding how many men was in single rifle battalion.
I'm just trying to figure it out how TOE strength relates to units
strength on the map. Which exactly elements are counted and which are ignored.
Rifle Battalion ("on the paper") its 709 men:
Command and HQ - 5 men
Signal platoon - 17
Medical platoon - 7
Supply platoon -16
(these 45 men I guess not included)
AT-rifles Co
commander
political staff
deputy
commander
"sergeant"
AT-rifles platoon
(in Co - 2)
commander
deputy
commander
squad commander - 4
deputy
squad commander/gunlayer - 4
gunlayer - 4
"numbers" - 8
(total in platoon - 22)
(total in 2 platoons - 44)
(total in Co - 48)
MG Co
commander
political staff
deputy commander
"sergeant"
MG platoon
(in Co - 3)
commander
squad commander - 4
deputy squad commander/gunlayer - 4
machine gunner - 20
(total in platoon - 29)
(total in 3 platoons - 87)
(total in Co - 91)
Rifle Co
(in Btn - 3)
commander
political staff
deputy commander
"sergeant"
"clerk"
"messenger"
sniper - 2
Medical squad - 5
Rifle platoon
(in Co - 3)
commander
deputy commander
"messenger"
sniper - 3
Rifle squad
(in platoon - 4)
squad commander - 4
deputy squad commander/gunlayer - 4
machine gunner - 4
rifleman - 36
(total in platoon - 54)
(total in 3 platoons - 162)
(total in Co - 175)
(total in 3 Co - 525)
Sorry, I don't know how I can use spoiler or spreadsheet options here.
That's my point, 100% in game does not mean 100% of TO&E. In games terms this is the highest value a unit can attain and rarely does any unit start off at TO&E strength unless it is a new reinforcement that has not been rushed to the front. In Stalingrad, many Soviet units were ad-hoc and rushed into position and will rarely if ever be full TO&E.
(12-18-2021, 10:39 PM)Strela Wrote: [ -> ]That's my point, 100% in game does not mean 100% of TO&E. In games terms this is the highest value a unit can attain and rarely does any unit start off at TO&E strength unless it is a new reinforcement that has not been rushed to the front. In Stalingrad, many Soviet units were ad-hoc and rushed into position and will rarely if ever be full TO&E.
At start of France'40 most of German infantry units have a similar strength.
But let's return to Stalingrad, ok. I'm speaking exactly about 23 July 1942 start. There is 62nd Army of Stalingrad Front - 6 rifle divisions. Actual TOE for this date is shtat #04/200 - 12795 men (or according to Isaev - 12807)
There is a
report about 62nd Army units status on 17 July:
33rd Gds RD - 11467
147th RD - 12513
181st RD - 12700
184th RD - 12903
192nd RD - 11428
196th RD - 12519
Or from Isaev's book about Stalingrad battle:
"The strength of formations of the ex-reserve armies was at a high level. So, in the 62nd army, the number of personnel of the formations ranged from 11,428 men (196th rifle division) to 12,903 men (184th rifle division) with a staff strength of 12,807 people."
So, in some cases we have units that close to maximum TOE. Even if such units have a shortage of personnel, this shortage mostly in rear/supply assets.
But my question is about what a logic is used by scenario designers for a calculation who should be counted for infantry units in the game. Like do command/political staff of companies/platoons/squads be ignored in these calculations or not.