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So after a looong hiatus, I've started exploring my PzC collection again.
And I've run into a slight snag.

When playing the Alt version of Omaha, that beach is....well, kinda lethal. :)
The only real option is to hammer the trench at Colleville, and pray that your engineers stay undisrupted long enough to breach the AT-ditch. It's (almost) a waste of time trying to disrupt defenders in bunkers/pillboxes with artillery, and the odds of tanks staying alive long enough to use direct fire, let alone assault are pretty slim.
And with the Mac PDT, trying to assault Hard targets without armor-support is futile.

Even worse, I prefer the Alternate Fire optional rule, at least for artillery and airpower.
Never seemed right to me that you'd be able to target a single unit, certainly not with area fire.
But using Alternate Fire at Omaha means that every attack will hit every unit, and the fatigue skyrockets into the 100+ after 2 turns. After 3-4 turns you're looking at several units in each hex with Max fatigue, and you're never getting off that beach.

So I tried again, this time without the Alternate fire rule, and this time I got off the beach with historical(ish) results.
But that was against the AI.
So I tried a third time, this time Hot-seating, and simply targeted every engineer I could lay my Teutonic eyes on.
And sure enough, nobody got off that beach.

So here's my problem.
With Alternate fire on, you're dead, plain and simple. The fatigue goes up far too fast to get anywhere, and pushing reinforcements onto the beach means higher stacks which only accelerates the process.
Without Alternate fire, the problem is that both players are fully aware of which hexes are vulnerable, so all engineers in the merest vicinity of those hexes become instant bullet-magnets.
Not to mention that unless the German player is a complete moron, he'll cycle whatever fresh units he can into those fortifications, prolonging the time spent at the seaside.

Am I missing something here, or is this simply a case of the PzC engine not doing seaborne invasions particularly well?

I do think the game struggles with seaborne invasions, mainly due to its scale. Probably one of the reasons the feet-dry scenarios exist. Obviously results will vary with each play-through. And just maybe why we never saw a pacific title come our way.

I've not really played Panzer Battles Normandy, but I would think the scale shrinking from 1km in pzc to 250m in pb would make a better difference in how a beach area is played by expanding upon the tactical situation instead of relying on a purely operational one. Probably why I think Market-Garden would be a better PB game than a PzC title, not to take anything away from it there.

Omaha is a tricky mistress, especially with alternate indirect fire turned on. I do think using that optional rule requires the artillery values to be scaled back a little, but that's just my view on the matter.

This is a bit outside the scope of the discussion, but I wanted to inject this too. I know you're just talking about the beach scenario, but it's why the campaign plays such a larger role. The object of the allies was in part to link up the beaches. One of the reasons why Carentan was an objective to the west, if needed forces from Utah beach could put pressure on Omaha, as well as British forces from Gold Beach. Threatening to isolate a capable German division early on could be huge in forcing the German player to either stick it out for a few more American bodies on the beach or withdraw to save the division. Without that external threat, the Germans can just reinforce omaha with whatever is available. Can you imagine if the German reserve regiment, 915th, at the time was originally sent to Omaha beach instead of being sent to attack the airborne troops to the west. It was later diverted to the beach, but only after the defenses started falling bit by bit. Anyway, now i"m just babbling on, my bad.


Atheory

You're right, there is obviously a larger picture to keep in mind.
Main reason I did the Omaha scenario was to practice before starting a campaign proper.
Not that it has much impact on this scenario, aside from a handful of German engineer companies that can hustle to the beaches around T5 IIRC.
There is a fresh infantry unit right next to the Colleville exit the German player can cycle if needed, and if you try to disrupt both that, and gain a foothold into Colleville itself, you have no fire-support left to try and gain another exit.
Which means a one-hex breakthrough, and that's assuming your engineers stay alive for long enough to actually breach the AT-ditch in the first place.

I do like the Alternate Fire OR though, at least for indirect fire. Personally, I think default artillery is a little weak, but that's just a gut-feeling/personal preference.
But it does discourage unrealistic stacking, and avoids the Doomstack issue.
Plus, it avoids the (IMO) gamey technique of targeting enemy AT assets, and then just run rampant with your armor.
Yes, in real-life the commanders would target enemy AT guns with artillery, but they weren't able to sit at a distance and kill them before even moving armor into range.
I guess the OR just breaks down when you have massive stacks on a 200% beach-head.

Oh well, it is what it is.
No great loss, I'll simply switch to The Bulge. ;)

(03-19-2018, 05:06 AM)CheerfullyInsane Wrote: [ -> ]I do like the Alternate Fire OR though, at least for indirect fire. Personally, I think default artillery is a little weak, but that's just a gut-feeling/personal preference.
But it does discourage unrealistic stacking, and avoids the Doomstack issue.
Plus, it avoids the (IMO) gamey technique of targeting enemy AT assets, and then just run rampant with your armor.
Yes, in real-life the commanders would target enemy AT guns with artillery, but they weren't able to sit at a distance and kill them before even moving armor into range.
I guess the OR just breaks down when you have massive stacks on a 200% beach-head.

Oh well, it is what it is.
No great loss, I'll simply switch to The Bulge. ;)

I think the solution to your problem is to change the parameters for beaches down from 200% to something more manageable. Maybe try 100% and see if you can get off the beach.  I agree with you, trying to get off the beach with Alt Fire selected in the Alt scenario is impossible.  

In the original scenarios that come with the game beach terrain is given a +10%. The Alt scenario files changed this to 200% but only required Alt Assault and not Alt Fire. The Alt scenario for the Omaha scenario also made a lot of changes to other terrain as well including Pillboxes/Bunkers plus it changed positions and types of these fortifications not to mention changes to the units involved. I'm sure you've read the comprehensive guide which comes with Volcanoman's scenarios. 

I like Alt Fire for the same reasons as you. Not sure if its too weak though. My pet peeve is that you can target one unit with every single artillery unit on a map sometimes. You will find this out in Bulge. If air can be limited to the number of attacks it can make on a hex, I can't see why artillery also can't be limited.

Its been a long time, but I believe Ed attempted to solve these issues raised about the impossibility of getting off the beach in his _Alt scenarios, so maybe try to play the _Alt version using the opt rules he suggests?

I don't have N44 to try this out myself to see if the changes worked or not.

(03-26-2018, 03:37 AM)Mr Grumpy Wrote: [ -> ]Its been a long time, but I believe Ed attempted to solve these issues raised about the impossibility of getting off the beach in his _Alt scenarios, so maybe try to play the _Alt version using the opt rules he suggests?

I don't have N44 to try this out myself to see if the changes worked or not.

I'll try the _Alt scenario with beaches at 100% and all the Optional Alt Fire/Assault rules. 

I'll also try the _Alt scenario with just the Alt Assault option as per Option Rules for _Alt scenarios. CheerfullyInsane has said this is possible against the AI but is impossible against a human player who understands the PzC system. 

I've played the scenario over the last few nights and hopefully the fact that the disruption removal test happens before the mine removal test in the turn helps. I've noticed that a lot of engineers recover disruption and then go on to remove a mine level in the same turn. If it was the other way then they would never get off the beach. I've managed to get Mines down to 0 but with every unit disrupted there is no way of assaulting off the beach.

Well, the campaign in Omaha is not bad for me. The trick is to bomb with units of high attack value and focus on an assault hex, the rest of the artillery is not worth it. Assault with armored and engineers to disorganize. The German player on his turn is very likely to fall into low ammunition and become disorganized if he fires.

(03-26-2018, 07:27 PM)Vasili.I.Chuikov Wrote: [ -> ]Well, the campaign in Omaha is not bad for me. The trick is to bomb with units of high attack value and focus on an assault hex, the rest of the artillery is not worth it. Assault with armored and engineers to disorganize. The German player on his turn is very likely to fall into low ammunition and become disorganized if he fires.

I'll check when I get home but I think the _Alt Omaha scenario only has one easy hex where the defenders are in a TRENCH. One of the defenders in it is a B Morale unit from the 352nd Div so a bit of luck is required to disrupt.

The rest of the dense are Pillboxes/Bunkers. I think 2 of these are in Clear terrain which helps a bit. 

I'll solo it tonight and start an AAR. 

The Volcanoman _Alt Notes are pretty instructive and show the changes made in order to try and replicate what happened historically. Of course that means using only the Alt Assault option.

Okay, for some reason I'm not able to quote anyone, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't respond with your names.

So yes, using only the recommended ORs does solve the problem. But it adds another one (at least IMO).
By deselecting Alt. fire for artillery, once the Allies are ashore, any German AT-gun becomes a munition-magnet.
I really don't like the ability to target a single unit in a stack.
After having played Mius as the Germans against a good Russian commander, I've been using Alt. fire religiously to avoid just that. In real life, the Germans would've spread those AT-guns out along the battalion line.
They were unlikely to be clumped together with a 6ft neon sign saying "Shoot me, please"

Then there's the assault itself.
Against a human player, getting off the beach might be possible without Alt. fire. I'm sure it CAN be done.
But you'll need an atrocious amount of luck.
Not only do you have to Disrupt the defenders, who are entrenched, which is hard enough. These are 1st line units with C Morale (might even be B Morale, can't remember), so they won't just roll over. Plus, you also have to Disrupt the guys who can cycle into the vulnerable hexes. And they're also entrenched.
Not to mention that nobody can actually spot the units for air/artillery until the first wave has landed and taken both Reaction-fire and Minefield attacks.
In fact, aside from the Colleville hex which is a Trench, everybody else is in Bunkers/Pillboxes of varying strengths.
Plus, there are only three hexes that you can even assault into, everything else is behind escarpment hex-sides.
And those three hexes are protected by not only minefields, but also AT-ditches that have to be breached first.
All of which means that the engineers will have to stay undisrupted for a minimum of 2 turns in order to breach the AT-ditch. And this is disregarding the mine-fields.
And since the Engineers don't have the moxie to take out the defenders alone, the Allied player also needs a fair amount of the 2nd/3rd wave to stay undisrupted for long enough to actually assault.
Especially the armor, since this is using the Alt. Assault rules. Did I mention that the armor lands in company-sized units, and thus take 3 times as much fatigue? ;)
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the tips.
But I know how to maximize my assaults, I just need my troops to stay alive for long enough.

Without Alt. fire it becomes doable. Not easy, but it's no longer collective suicide.
Usually you can get through at Coleville, and once you get armor out of the minefields you can start clearing the rest of the enemy bunker-line without having to be in 200% terrain.

Simply editing the terrain modifier for the beaches is probably the best bet.
Once ashore, it's not as if there's an abundance of beach-hexes to be fought over.

EDIT: Figured out why I couldn't quote anyone.....Human error as usual.

I am new on this board, but I recently purchased PzB Normandy after owning Normandy '44 for years.
Back in the day a friend and I played Gold Beach twice switching sides and neither of us made it off of Gold in less than 12 hours. Far longer than historical. The combat results simply do no work.

So I had played nothing but Gettysburg and Peninsula for a while but I finally purchased PzB Normady and with much trepidation I ran Utah... and the combat works! Then Juno... combat works.

I love big scenarios so I am always tempted by Normandy '44 for the campaigns, but i fear the combat results table will drive me crazy, while new(er) Normandy only has one day battles except Bluecoat I think. Quandary.