My brother and I currently are playing East Prussia '14 and it came up that the contour interval was 50m. Offhand we thought that was a bit steep for the scale, and upon checking some of my other installed PzC games, it seems some use a 20m interval (like Moscow '41) and others also use a 50m interval (e.g. France '40). The major thing about the higher interval is the steep movement penalty incurred when moving to a hex of higher elevation which, were the 20m interval utilized, would've been spread over several hexes instead of being all in one instance. This usually means that in 50m interval games it costs even more MPs to move to a higher elevation than just the elevation difference due to larger amounts of MPs lost from the inability to pay the cost to enter the higher hex on the previous turn.
Does anyone have any insight into the basis for using the higher or lower contour intervals in the TOC? Is the scale due to limitations in the source maps used for making the game maps, or is it a judgment call by the designer?
(02-20-2015, 11:42 PM)Lohengrin Wrote: [ -> ]My brother and I currently are playing East Prussia '14 and it came up that the contour interval was 50m. Offhand we thought that was a bit steep for the scale, and upon checking some of my other installed PzC games, it seems some use a 20m interval (like Moscow '41) and others also use a 50m interval (e.g. France '40). The major thing about the higher interval is the steep movement penalty incurred when moving to a hex of higher elevation which, were the 20m interval utilized, would've been spread over several hexes instead of being all in one instance. This usually means that in 50m interval games it costs even more MPs to move to a higher elevation than just the elevation difference due to larger amounts of MPs lost from the inability to pay the cost to enter the higher hex on the previous turn.
Does anyone have any insight into the basis for using the higher or lower contour intervals in the TOC? Is the scale due to limitations in the source maps used for making the game maps, or is it a judgment call by the designer?
Having only worked on the later Panzer Campaigns, I can say the elevation changes have been baked in, in the map creation cycle. The elevations are usually a fait accompli by the time the designer gets the map. What is in the designers control is the cost for changing the additional movement points per elevation level which is controlled in the parameter file.
Having seen the map editor, it is easy to change the elevation value, but really the issue you want to understand is how the movement penalty per level is determined. The positive thing is that if you think it's too high and your opponent agrees, you can change it in the parameter data file and make it more 'reasonable'.
As a final comment, I believe the bulk of the Panzer Campaign maps have been built off 1:100,000 scale source maps where usually the contour lines are shown every 10 meters. I am assuming that 20 meters would be the more likely default used other than mountainous maps such as Sicily.
David
Elevation intervals are easy to change if you don't like them, although obviously changing them could impact the realism of the game as designed; as Strela mentions, if the only issue is the movement cost of changing contours you can also change that value in the pdt file.
If you open a PzC map file in a text editor, the third line is a bunch of numbers which represent the successive elevation contours in the game--you can change them in the text file to change the elevations. Obviously, save a copy of your original map file.
Yes, I would refuse to change the contour interval because the elevations are accurate and I don't want to diminish the realism, as you say 76mm.
My inquiry has more to do with the rationale for choosing one contour interval over another. In addition to France '40, I noticed Bulge '44 also uses the 50m interval. Whoever makes this determination, what influences the decision? Personally, I prefer a 20m interval but would be interested in knowing how larger intervals came about. I can understand the Sicily map where, I believe, there are actually 100m intervals in places. But for non-mountainous or overly rugged areas?
I don't know for sure, but my guess is that determination of the elevation contour is rather simple: I think that there are a limited number of contour elevations available in the map file--take a look. So the higher elevation a map has, the bigger the contour interval has to be.
In other words, lets say there are ten possible contour elevations, and the max elevation on the map is 200 meters; in that case the contour interval is 20 meters (200/10). On the other hand, if the max elevation is 500 meters, then the countour interval is 50 (500/10). This is a bit simplistic, because in fact the internals don't all have to be the same--you can set contour elevations for 0, 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100 meters, then go to 150, 200, etc.
Again, this is just a guess, maybe it was because of what maps are available, etc.
Map scale is usually decided based on several factors...
1) The range of elevation the map will cover. In most cases, if the elevation range is 0m to 1300m, and there aren't but so many elevations "steps" (13 to be exact), then its obvious what the interval must be (about 100m per step). Some maps have varied elevation though, they might be 100m per step, then 250m above a certain elevation in these cases where elevation range is even higher. For example, I was working on a map recently where the elevation range was 0 to 1600m. I decided the contour interval would be 100m until 600m, then in intervals of 250m after that. Of course it is not optimal but you have to work with what you have, and the rationale was that once you get into the 750m elevation, you are beginning to talk about mountains, so the difference between 750m and 1000m is usually an elevation change that happens within the 1km hex anyway.
2) The source map. Usually you cannot find a source topographic map that has better than 50m resolution, and such is the case for most eastern front maps if I am not mistaken. You very well cannot make a 20m contour map if the source map is in 50 or sometimes 100m intervals. ;) And no, don't even suggest using Google Earth unless the map is going to take a year or more to make (forget it).
3) Map designer's sanity. If you have never actually made a map yourself, you cannot really understand how difficult it is to read the elevations. If you go too low on the counter steps, then the map actually loses some detail because within a 1km scale you often cannot represent 20m shifts in elevation accurately, even if the source map had that sort of contour line resolution. 50m allows the map designer to realistically make the map within something like 6 months, and not go insane doing it.
Personally I don't know who made the 20m per contour elevation maps, but there is a reason why there aren't that many of them. Maybe the source maps were fantastic, or likely they are of areas that are pretty much flat as a pancake. Usually the flatter an area is, the better the source map resolution (they might be in 10m intervals, if there are very few elevation shifts). I would would say that 50m contour interval is the established norm though, at least it is the most often used interval, especially in the largest maps.
In regards to F14, anything less than 50m interval is not practical because the elevation range of the terrain would exceed the allowed number of steps available. And in regards to EP14, the desire there was to keep it similar to F14, and to allow for greater mobility (and again, map maker sanity, source map limitation, and so on). I personally like the 50m standard myself.
Anyway, hopefully that sheds some light on the issue. ;)
edited: typos
Once again, thanks Ed for explaining the considerations so thoroughly and expertly. That's exactly what I was looking for. I'm always a stickler for uniformity and I was curious as to the variance of the contours, not surprisingly favoring the "higher resolution" where possible. But at least it gives me a better understanding of the process involved. I seem to recall from somewhere that JT had some very detailed maps of the area around Moscow, and that might explain why those are 20m intervals.