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The same gun aren't they? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KwK_40

So why different weapon values?

I am of course talking about PzIV H/J and StuGIII G

Weapon data:

Pz IV H
P01665 28 26 24 22 19 16 13 12 11 10 9 8
11 11 11 10 10 10 9 9 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5

StuG IIIG / IV

P01022 24 22 20 18 15 12 9 6
9 9 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4

To add an insult to injury, here's PaK 40 ATG (L/46)

P01168 32 28 24 20 16 12 11 10 9 8
9 9 9 8 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4

Whoah! Of course, the ATG had different cartridges, enabling a higher muzzle velosity.

Any way, back to comparing KwK to StuK. That's quite a difference. Why?

I don't think the gun was different. Just a different name.

Optics? I have not heard the optics were different. I have not found a statement saying they were the same either...

I am considering a new upgraded StuG IIIG unit for my mod, with PzIV weapon data. The assault guns are having a hard time against T-34/85s and IS-2s / ISU-2s...

Any reason why I should not do it?

EDIT: Hard values only, as the soft values should be different, PzIV was better armed with two MGs.

(Just to remind, whatever I do with my mod does not effect the EF2 stock engine or scenarios at all).

Could rate of fire have anything to do with it? Maybe there was more room to reload in a PzIV, just a speculation?

Cheers Rick, no I don't think that's it. If anything StuGs propably had more room for the gun crew.

Fire control in general? In this game many combat attributes are welded into the firepower value.

Could be? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this. The difference in hard values and range is quite significant. I believe the combat value of a StuG III G was quite good, and i think the best crews racked up quite a big number of destroyed enemy AFVs.

Found this: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/sturmgeschu...utz-iv.htm

For an example:

The most notable Waffen SS Stug ace was SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Walter Kniep, who commanded the 2nd Sturmgeschuetz Abteilung of 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich". From July 5th of 1943 to January 17th of 1944, his unit claimed destruction of some 129 Soviet tanks, while losing two Stugs. Kniep was then awarded the Knight’s Cross.

Overall, Sturmgeschutz series proved to be very successful, and served on all fronts as assault guns and tank destroyers in both offensive and defensive mode. Sturmgeschutz III with its low silhouette was a difficult target and a dangerous opponent. Sturmgeschutz crews were considered to be the elite of the artillery units and were issued special field grey (version of panzer) uniforms. Sturmgeschutz units held very impressive record of tank kills some 20000 enemy tanks by spring of 1944

Panther:
P01667 36 35 34 32 30 28 26 23 20 17 15 13
11 11 11 10 10 10 9 9 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5

Jagdpanzer IV L/70:
P01678 32 30 28 26 24 22 20 18 16 14 11 8
8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2

So the assault guns are penalised in their hard values, despite the same main gun.

But at least with the L/70 cannon mounted on these two fighting vehicles their range remains the same...

I need to think about this...

(12-06-2012, 06:06 AM)Battle Kat Wrote: [ -> ]Panther:
P01667 36 35 34 32 30 28 26 23 20 17 15 13
11 11 11 10 10 10 9 9 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5

Jagdpanzer IV L/70:
P01678 32 30 28 26 24 22 20 18 16 14 11 8
8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2

So the assault guns are penalised in their hard values, despite the same main gun.

But at least with the L/70 cannon mounted on these two fighting vehicles their range remains the same...

I need to think about this...

I think with the limited fire attempts for the assault guns things are balanced...........gun ranges and effectiveness should be the same......but I am not an expert........just logical......I have 2 .35 caliber rifles one old and one new..they both fire the same shell at about the same effectiveness........depending on who does the aiming which is not a factor in the above discussion :-)

VE

I'm thinking it was the optics, the KWK used a mx2.4 Magnification versus a mx5.0 of the KWK, however, the field of degrees is the factor, the Stug had 8, whilst the KWK had 25 degrees. The range in metres for the KWK was 3,000 AP, 1,500 AP40, 4,000 HE. The range for the StuK was 2,000 AP, 1,500AP40. Hope this helps? This from encyclopedia of German tanks.

vE, you hit the nail in the head: it is not the gun but the man behind it!

Mike, very interesting, thanks!

Range The different optics explain it don't they! I guess what you're saying is that StuK was equipped with mx2.4 optics, while KwK had mx5.0 optics attached to it. The 'range issue' can be considered solved.

The field of degrees should not be an issue for range nor effectiveness, as especially with long range shots the limited barrel movement becomes less of an issue, as the gun barrel barely moves when adjusting to fire upon a remote target. I always thought the field of degrees -issue (no revolving turret) is handled with the fire cost of 50AP, which always felt right. You fired twice or you fire once and then move out.

Effectiveness vs Hard targets I am still not completely happy about the reduced effectiveness of the same gun, but on a different chassis. I agree that there are other capabilities modeled into these values, so be it, perhaps. The field-of-degrees thingie included, I suppose.

Unfortunately, that is a big handicap for StuGs. I would somehow need to boost their effectiveness up, as the StuG battalion performed extremely well during the Vyborg Offensive, killing 10 enemy AFVs for every one friendly loss.

How should I go about it then?

I am already working on replacing the standard motorised leader with a SP1 StuG with leader capabilites. A leader, stacked together with firing units improves the calculations, right?

Now, back to Earl's observation: the men behind the guns. For the relatively few modern AFVs available the men were hand picked and had a long training as well. I hate uber-morale units, I am happy to have all units at 7. However, in this case it could be OK to boost their morale up to 8, or possibly even to 9 to make the units more effective.

The other route would be to improve the range 1-3 (or 1-4, possibly) values by two points, given that the StuGs often let the enemy AFVs advance into a range of 150 yards before firing at them. The several veteran interviews I've read always mentions how they only fired their first shot when they were sure to hit the joint between the turret and the chassis.


So, to summarise:

- Add a leader as a StuG SP1 unit. This adds a bit of firepower to the units as well.
- Consider upping the morale by one notch.
- Consider upping the short range hard values with two points. At the moment StuG values are four points lower at short range compared to a Pz IV with a similar main gun (but with different optics as we found out).

Again, the StuGs were the only modern vehicles in the Isthmus at the time, there were never many of them, but still they managed to perform extremely well. I would somehow need to model that on my LWM scenarios. Not to make them uber units, but just to pack a bit more punch. Now they often stand no chance to advancing hordes of T-34s.

Of course, the main weapon in the Isthmus vs AFVs was often a determined soldier who individually sneaked into a covered position and then used his faust effectively.

That is modeled very well in the engine, as late war infantry is deadly againts tanks.

Your thoughts?

New Stu-40 graphics by our very own bitmap wizard Mike Amos!

Is this a work of beauty or what!


See the storage box at the back, and the logs added to provide some (questionable) side protection!

Leader, unbuttoned to get an overall view of the situation:


:looks good: