I'm playing the Alt as well as the strategic option scenario. In the latter the Panhard is a good weapon with 4 hard attack and 9 soft. In the Alt version it's 4 hard and 2 soft. I know we went over this before, but why are German armored cars so much superior to the Panhard in the Alt version. A few days ago, a battalion of German motorcycle troops just blew away 24 Panhards that were in wooded terrain, entrenched and on high ground. Would motorcycle troops in 1940 have even taken on the Panhards? The Panhards had a cannon and an MG. Why do German armored cars get a 9 soft attack in Alt while the Panhard has a 2 soft attack? I don't get it. I asked about this before and never got an answer so I'm trying again. jonny
In the version we are actually playing the panhard 178 have a 6 hard and 8 soft attack.
The german AC have 8soft and 8 hard.
I think that the difference in hard attack is due to the training level difference. It's probable that a german gunner was able to do more evil with his 20mm gun than a french gunner with his 25mm gun
I remember while testing the H2H Stonne_alt scenario, VM and myself noticed that the Panhard had "strange" values, but i think in this case it was its very high (for a A/C) defence value rather than its hard/soft fire values?
Anyway i am sure Ed will know what he changed. ;)
(02-26-2012, 06:23 PM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: [ -> ]I'm playing the Alt as well as the strategic option scenario. In the latter the Panhard is a good weapon with 4 hard attack and 9 soft. In the Alt version it's 4 hard and 2 soft. I know we went over this before, but why are German armored cars so much superior to the Panhard in the Alt version. A few days ago, a battalion of German motorcycle troops just blew away 24 Panhards that were in wooded terrain, entrenched and on high ground. Would motorcycle troops in 1940 have even taken on the Panhards? The Panhards had a cannon and an MG. Why do German armored cars get a 9 soft attack in Alt while the Panhard has a 2 soft attack? I don't get it. I asked about this before and never got an answer so I'm trying again. jonny
Well, it is simple really. You cannot just look at a the caliber of a weapon and compare the two; the gun on the Panhard was an antitank gun and the one on the German armored car was (basically) an auto-cannon. Therefore, the Panhard has a better hard attack (HA: 3, SA: 2) and the German armored cars have a better soft attack (HA: 1, SA: 9), which are the basic properties of those guns. If those aren't the values you are seeing then you will need to update your F40_Alt again. ;)
"Well, it is simple really. You cannot just look at a the caliber of a weapon and compare the two; the gun on the Panhard was an antitank gun and the one on the German armored car was (basically) an auto-cannon. Therefore, the Panhard has a better hard attack (HA: 3, SA: 2) and the German armored cars have a better soft attack (HA: 1, SA: 9), which are the basic properties of those guns. If those aren't the values you are seeing then you will need to update your F40_Alt again." ;)
What about the machine gun in the turret? jonny
(02-27-2012, 03:42 PM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: [ -> ]What about the machine gun in the turret? jonny
MGs are factored in already, and they fall mainly in the domain of the assault rating. I can assure you, there isn't anything missing from the unit ratings that hasn't been thought of already. Now whether a mistake was made, well, that is another story, but I did check the values and they look fine so they will remain as is. If that is not the answer that you want to hear then change the values to what you like, but I see no reason to change them in the Alt.
(02-28-2012, 06:19 AM)Volcano Man Wrote: [ -> ] (02-27-2012, 03:42 PM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: [ -> ]What about the machine gun in the turret? jonny
MGs are factored in already, and they fall mainly in the domain of the assault rating. I can assure you, there isn't anything missing from the unit ratings that hasn't been thought of already. Now whether a mistake was made, well, that is another story, but I did check the values and they look fine so they will remain as is. If that is not the answer that you want to hear then change the values to what you like, but I see no reason to change them in the Alt.
Ed, I don't "want" anything when I ask these questions. All I know is that in the original game as well as the strategic option game the Panhard was a good weapon with 6 hard 8 soft and at least it could defend itself against infantry. Now in Alt it's 4 hard and 2 soft; infantry attack it with impunity and blow it away. That's my observation and I am simply wondering why, as many have, similarly armed German weapons, German 'super' armored cars for example, seem to be similar but rated much higher. jonny
IMHO...the Panhard soft ratings in the stock version just seem to high for the weaponry it carried.Not sure if they even had 25mm HE ammo.I think rate of fire would factor into the ratings as well.
I dont think AC's should be expected to hold ground vs Inf in an assault situation especially.
Also in game,I know I sometimes overlook the strengths of the units when making comparisons.F40 German AC units are sometimes 50 cars while I dont think the Panhards ever get over 24.Perhaps this is what makes them seem Super.Quantity has a Quality of its own, its said.I found this out in a Kursk game as the Russians when I realized my most effective anti-armor weapon was a Mortar unit.The Hard attack ratings were not good,but the 36 tubes made up for that.
(02-28-2012, 07:04 AM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: [ -> ]Ed, I don't "want" anything when I ask these questions.
Every time I suggest that you can change the values you seem to get a little annoyed -- but no offense intended, the fact is everyone cannot be pleased and they actually should change the numbers to suit their tastes if they do not like it. It is only natural. It is basically me saying that "they are correct and will not change". ;)
But anyway, I don't know why the standard game has Panhard ratings that high. If you are basing the discussion on "standard game has rating X, why does Alt have rating Y?", well -- that is indefensible, I only know 1/2 of the answer. All I am saying is that the Alt's Panhard values appear consistent/correct with all the other _Alt ratings currently and everything is factored in. That is not to say either the standard or _Alt ratings are "right" or "wrong", all I know is that if the Panhard is HA:3 / SA:2 in the Alt then all the other unit ratings are consistent relative to those ratings, and that is the only thing that really matters in the grand scheme of things.
Other than that, I think that infantry can attack any armored car in _Alt with impunity and "blow them away" (at least they can assault and overrun them) -- those vehicles are intended solely for reconnaissance, not blitzing and isolation/prisoner round up. Sure the German armored cars are better against infantry than the Panhard, but the Panhard can possibly kill some Panzer Is and IIs where as the German ACs can do diddly squat to hard targets. Rock, paper, scissors. Here is an idea: you can use the Panhard to engage/oppose German armored cars.
(02-28-2012, 08:54 AM)Volcano Man Wrote: [ -> ]Rock, paper, scissors. Here is an idea: you can use the Panhard to engage/oppose German armored cars.
And use 1940 armored recon tactics too. Speed is the best defense. Move, take a shot or two if terrain allows it, then get out of LOS. Most German units the Panhard can hurt, have big brothers who will be glad to beat you up if you are foolish or just unlucky enough to be caught.
Dog Soldier