I've been playing the 1914 early campaign scenario, four games still in progress and one draw so far. I've noticed this: The Germans tend to re-order c. 30%-35% of the time while the French re-order c. 20%-25% of the time, even though they have more command levels and should accrue some benefit therefrom. To wit: The French run from Joffre' (C rated) through their various Army commands (some D some C) to Corps (mostly C) Division (Cs) and Brigade (Petain an A the rest C). The Germans don't have anything better; and until von Moltke makes his belated appearance, one fewer command level, mostly C with two B Korps level commands. It should be about equal but it isn't! True, every once in a while the French command structure clicks in and 30-35% are reordered but that doesn't happen too often. The Germans on the other hand get consistently 30-35% re-order. How and why is this? jonny :conf:
There is nothing special here for the Germans, they should be same in that regard. As to why you might be seeing those odds (not sure how you are keeping track of all that), well, the odds depend on several things, most importantly, the distance of the unit to its parent HQ. At the bottom level, that is, brigade HQs undisrupting the infantry battalions, it should be equal (all things considering) because the link to the division, corps, and OHL does not matter in this regard AFAIK. Where it does matter is with supply.
The difference between 25% and 30% in your example could very well be due to luck or the distances between the HQ units and the infantry units. I would recommend reading the section on HQs to know the exact details about it though (in case I am remembering it incorrectly).
(06-18-2011, 02:49 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: [ -> ]There is nothing special here for the Germans, they should be same in that regard. As to why you might be seeing those odds (not sure how you are keeping track of all that), well, the odds depend on several things, most importantly, the distance of the unit to its parent HQ. At the bottom level, that is, brigade HQs undisrupting the infantry battalions, it should be equal (all things considering) because the link to the division, corps, and OHL does not matter in this regard AFAIK. Where it does matter is with supply.
The difference between 25% and 30% in your example could very well be due to luck or the distances between the HQ units and the infantry units. I would recommend reading the section on HQs to know the exact details about it though (in case I am remembering it incorrectly).
Doesn't the Brigade HQ give only a "1" boost in the "die roll" if it passes its command check? If all the requisite commanders, from Joffre' down to Brigade pass the command roll then the re-order should be automatic (+5 in addition to the innate 1 chance the unit has to re-order). If the link to division, corps and army doesn't matter, why do they have command ranges and why should we bother to keep anyone in command? :conf:
"There is nothing special here for the Germans, they should be same in that regard. As to why you might be seeing those odds (not sure how you are keeping track of all that)."
I'm keeping track because I've seen about 50 German command reports and about 150 French ones and I calculate the percentage each time. After a while I began to see the pattern and it exists. jonny :smoke:
Ah yes, I remembered it incorrectly, disrupted and out of command HQs still allow a unit to recover, but at 1/2 the normal probability. But other than that, I just don't know what to say. It all depends on the range to your brigade HQs, and whether or not they are in command. Other than that, there is no special bonus for German units.
(06-18-2011, 02:49 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: [ -> ]At the bottom level, that is, brigade HQs undisrupting the infantry battalions, it should be equal (all things considering) because the link to the division, corps, and OHL does not matter in this regard AFAIK. Where it does matter is with supply.
So you are saying that only the Brigade HQ (or relevant HQ) matters for determining the ability to re-order? Then why am I trying to keep Joffre', Army, Corps, Division and Brigade HQ in a chain of command? Since every brigade can then operate independently without any loss of command effectiveness the chain of command is essentially irrelevant; Joffre's sole purpose then is to command the odd individual Army unit? And Army, Corps and Divisional HQ units also only have a command range for those odd units directly under their command as well? And what should any of this have to do with supply? Aren't supply values determined by hex location? :conf:
(06-19-2011, 01:14 AM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: [ -> ] (06-18-2011, 02:49 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: [ -> ]At the bottom level, that is, brigade HQs undisrupting the infantry battalions, it should be equal (all things considering) because the link to the division, corps, and OHL does not matter in this regard AFAIK. Where it does matter is with supply.
So you are saying that only the Brigade HQ (or relevant HQ) matters for determining the ability to re-order? Then why am I trying to keep Joffre', Army, Corps, Division and Brigade HQ in a chain of command? Since every brigade can then operate independently without any loss of command effectiveness the chain of command is essentially irrelevant; Joffre's sole purpose then is to command the odd individual Army unit? And Army, Corps and Divisional HQ units also only have a command range for those odd units directly under their command as well? ...
I am ignoring the supply side as it has nothing to do with the original question, and will be equally detailed. But for the disruption recovery check, as VM said, please check the manual out as it should help explain the role of the different parts. HQs can be in or out of command, that is a separate check, and for the check the chain of command plays a signfiicant role - that should explain why keeping formatins together is helpful. Read the manual on that part for a full explanation, but basically having an HQ in range of the higher HQ's command range helps it be in command. Make sense?
So then when the disruption recovery check is made, range to the unit's immediate HQ plays a role, along with the status of that HQ - if it failed its command check (and being too far from its parent HQ makes that failure more likely) then the unit has a lessened chance of recovery no matter what the range to its HQ. And being closer, as VM said, makes it more likely - IF the HQ is in command.
So summary of the manual - chain of command makes it more likely HQs will be in command, and being in command makes it more likely its subordinate units will recover from disruption, and THEN range to its immediate subordinates make it more likely they will recover the shorter the range.
Rick
If this works the way PzC works, (and I think it does) morale (not quality) of the unit trying to rally from disruption, is a factor. Since defending units usually have a harder time moving out of the front line than attacking units do, the defending units (French in this case) will have higher average unit fatigue overall and a lesser chance of rally until some time passes for the fatigue to recover. This could account for the 10% average difference overall that jmb is seeing.
One caution is that jmb may be looking at the surface of the lake and not at the currents under the surface.
Dog Soldier
(06-19-2011, 01:14 AM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: [ -> ] (06-18-2011, 02:49 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: [ -> ]At the bottom level, that is, brigade HQs undisrupting the infantry battalions, it should be equal (all things considering) because the link to the division, corps, and OHL does not matter in this regard AFAIK. Where it does matter is with supply.
So you are saying that only the Brigade HQ (or relevant HQ) matters for determining the ability to re-order? Then why am I trying to keep Joffre', Army, Corps, Division and Brigade HQ in a chain of command? Since every brigade can then operate independently without any loss of command effectiveness the chain of command is essentially irrelevant; Joffre's sole purpose then is to command the odd individual Army unit? And Army, Corps and Divisional HQ units also only have a command range for those odd units directly under their command as well? And what should any of this have to do with supply? Aren't supply values determined by hex location? :conf:
Please read my second post. Yes it does matter, I said I remembered it incorrectly at the time that I was posting it. When it doubt, read the manual. ;)
(06-19-2011, 03:03 AM)Ricky B Wrote: [ -> ] (06-19-2011, 01:14 AM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: [ -> ] (06-18-2011, 02:49 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: [ -> ]At the bottom level, that is, brigade HQs undisrupting the infantry battalions, it should be equal (all things considering) because the link to the division, corps, and OHL does not matter in this regard AFAIK. Where it does matter is with supply.
So you are saying that only the Brigade HQ (or relevant HQ) matters for determining the ability to re-order? Then why am I trying to keep Joffre', Army, Corps, Division and Brigade HQ in a chain of command? Since every brigade can then operate independently without any loss of command effectiveness the chain of command is essentially irrelevant; Joffre's sole purpose then is to command the odd individual Army unit? And Army, Corps and Divisional HQ units also only have a command range for those odd units directly under their command as well? ...
I am ignoring the supply side as it has nothing to do with the original question, and will be equally detailed. But for the disruption recovery check, as VM said, please check the manual out as it should help explain the role of the different parts. HQs can be in or out of command, that is a separate check, and for the check the chain of command plays a signfiicant role - that should explain why keeping formatins together is helpful. Read the manual on that part for a full explanation, but basically having an HQ in range of the higher HQ's command range helps it be in command. Make sense?
So then when the disruption recovery check is made, range to the unit's immediate HQ plays a role, along with the status of that HQ - if it failed its command check (and being too far from its parent HQ makes that failure more likely) then the unit has a lessened chance of recovery no matter what the range to its HQ. And being closer, as VM said, makes it more likely - IF the HQ is in command.
So summary of the manual - chain of command makes it more likely HQs will be in command, and being in command makes it more likely its subordinate units will recover from disruption, and THEN range to its immediate subordinates make it more likely they will recover the shorter the range.
Rick
All right, this explains the situation, thank you. ;)
(06-19-2011, 04:19 AM)Dog Soldier Wrote: [ -> ]If this works the way PzC works, (and I think it does) morale (not quality) of the unit trying to rally from disruption, is a factor. Since defending units usually have a harder time moving out of the front line than attacking units do, the defending units (French in this case) will have higher average unit fatigue overall and a lesser chance of rally until some time passes for the fatigue to recover. This could account for the 10% average difference overall that jmb is seeing.
One caution is that jmb may be looking at the surface of the lake and not at the currents under the surface.
Dog Soldier
Yes I can see this making a difference; the French units have to hang tough and it's easier to rotate the German units out when they approach 100 fatigue, which I do.
