I'm getting killed, literally, because my understanding of couple things is foggy at best. The SPWW2 and MBT manuals cover some of this stuff, but I'm a product of the public school system - so I need a little help.
So, can anyone give a nice, clear explanation of the numbers on the information screen for Range, Warhead, Kill and Penetration? Particularly Kill and Penetration.
I'd like to know how these numbers work in the game (examples are good) and a good understanding of how they work together for the advantage or disadvantage of a particular unit type. The manual is great, but I'd like it dumbed down a bit.
I'm tired of buying what I think is the perfect AT weapon, only to watch it endlessly ping off the body of a small tank as it rolls over my helpless and often hapless infantry.
So I lay down the gaunlet. Whom ever can explain this the best wins not only the satisfaction, but also my sincere gratitude.
Thanks,
Nick S.
As far as I can tell Penetration is the thickness of the armor an AP round will penetrate at POINT BLANK RANGE. It would be nice to have penetration values at different ranges but those are not listed. Just point blank. I guess that must be one hex or less. HEAT rounds don't matter. Same at any range. APCR or Sabot rounds are usually more effective at shorter ranges than straight AP because they don't shoot as far.
Range is how far it shoots. Sometimes given in minimum/maximum value.
Warhead is how large the shell is. Kind of like how big of a bang it makes. Bigger is better.
Kill is lethality probably. Bigger is better. It's a High Explosive value I think. Not for penetration although a 152mm HE shell fired with direct fire at any tank will cause extreme suffering to the occupants.
Firing AP at a small tank can sometimes be frustrating simply because the round passes directly through the entire tank. Especially larger rounds. A smaller round might get through the front and then rattle around inside for a bit. Ouch.
Your infantry should be able to handle a light tank one would think. In any event, this is my take on it and it's probably fairly true in most wargames that are somewhat realistic.
(05-21-2010, 08:53 AM)Panama Wrote: [ -> ]As far as I can tell Penetration is the thickness of the armor an AP round will penetrate at POINT BLANK RANGE. It would be nice to have penetration values at different ranges but those are not listed. Just point blank. I guess that must be one hex or less. HEAT rounds don't matter. Same at any range. APCR or Sabot rounds are usually more effective at shorter ranges than straight AP because they don't shoot as far.
Actually SPWW2 does have accurate penetration data for all ranges now. This was only released in the last 4.0 update. Go into your WinSPWW2 folder and you will see a WW2_APCalc.exe file. Just enter the nation and weapon and it will give you the average and maximum penetration at any range.
If you just want the average penetration for some common weapons at various ranges, I made my own Excel spreadsheet guide. I'll attach it to this post. Feel free to change it to your own taste, or add weapons that you use or come across.
If we're talking SPWaW, I believe they have penetration data in the unit information screen.
Warhead size does effect penetration. The larger warheads maintain penetration at greater ranges; but this effect is taken into account in the penetration calculator/guide. Warhead size also effects damage.
In addition, the more the penetration exceeds the armour value, the greater the damage is likely to be. IOW, a penetration of 11 against 10 armour will likely cause a little damage (**), but penetration of 20 against 10 armour will likely cause a brew up.
Hope this helps,
if you check out the GAME TIPS FOR NEW PLAYERS document in the sticky section, I explain these things there.
One can do alot of conculating,how fast you have moved,or the target has,angle,elevation warhead size, penetration values yadda yadda..
What it comes down to is " just pure Luck" and trial and error and maybe some gut feeling?.
I just let the game engine do all that mathmetical stuff for me,
Fire and pray:bow:
As you seem to play mainly MBT dumned down basics of info screen.
split into 4 sections top to bottom
Weapon Data
Ammo Data
Armour Data
Other Stuff related to hiting not killing or general stuff like smoke dischargers.
Weapon Data
KILL - Rating vs soft targets first number is using HE
2nd number if one is for other ammo types generally.
PEN - First number is for HE vs Armour
2nd number is for AP vs Armour
HEAT - HEAT vs Armour
APCR - Sabot vs Armour
RANGE - Has no effect on HEAT & HE but AP & APCR lose penetrating power with range, the number listed is penetration at point blank range. With armour 2nd number is APCR range first the rest.
As mentioned there is a utility you can use to check it but you just develop a feel.
Try firing at targets at diffrent ranges to get an idea of how it drops off.
WARHEAD Bigger is better gives a slight boost to all the above ratings, not that important & dont bank on it suggest ignore for now or can hope adds 1/4 to 1/2 it value.
This is what dictates splash levels though causing adjacent hexes to be hit.
Check you actualy have ammo for that weapon its no good having a APCR rating of 80 if you dont have any SABOT on board.
ARMOUR DATA
The weapon data needs to exceed the armour data to penetrate remembering AP & APCR fall off with range.
HEAT uses the HEAT armour values, if listed as zero they are the same as steel.
All other ammo uses the steel armour ratings.
ERA Two types standard that stops HEAT only & advanced (A in front of the number) that stops everything.
This has a chance equal to the number X10% to stop a round but is reduced each time it works.
So 2=20% 5=50%
But if the 5 stops a round it is now reduced to 4 so has a 40% chance of stopping the next one & so on.
Other stuff
HEAT penetration results vary a lot more than other ammo types. Think of the rating very much as an average it can vary quite a lot above & below.
Other ammo types the rating is close to the max possible.
Over Penetration Results.
If within about 300m maybe a bit more in MBT with a unit with good firecontrol etc these may occur if your hit percentage becomes high enough.
High hit chance assumes targeting a specific part of the target like a hatch so it makes an extra roll, if succesfull you see the overpenetration message. 2-6 extra is normal but I have had 32
Missiles & Artillery difrences
Range 2nd number is normally minimum range if any
Note missiles sometimes list HEAT ammo as AP if only one ammo type listed assume it uses HEAT not AP values.
Also with missiles if in notes says TA thats top attack so it hits the top not the side facing you.
RPGs
As you mentioned them it is quite common for them not to be able to stop a MBT from the front especially in modern times vs main powers.
Say 70 HEAT vs 100 HEAT armour.
Before that though the likes of an RPG7 was dangerous to a lot of stuff from the front.
Flank shots or an assault are the way to go.
WW2
Info tends to become far more important as penetration levels vs armour tend to be a lot closer.
Very few units have a seperate HEAT armour rating, mainly some German gear.
Pay attention to gun ranges some are very short so penetration falls off fast. Also a lot of APCR has ranges less than the other ammo so is not very effective at range.
If you really want to could use the AP calculator but Cross has provided a list of common units & expected results earlier in this thread.
(05-21-2010, 11:07 AM)Gila Wrote: [ -> ]One can do alot of conculating,how fast you have moved,or the target has,angle,elevation warhead size, penetration values yadda yadda..
What it comes down to is " just pure Luck" and trial and error and maybe some gut feeling?.
I just let the game engine do all that mathmetical stuff for me,
Fire and pray:bow:
Hi Gila,
I agree that the best - and most fun - way to play is using your 'gut instinct', but only after you have some experience; and you still need to do calculations once in while.
Let me give an example from a recent PBEM battle:
I pulled my tank out of a tree line and spotted a Tiger tank 600yds away in rough ground. To engage or not to engage :chin:
Checked my AP Pen Guide and found that my tank's sabot penetration at 600yds was 14 (average), Tiger front armour: 12 :cool:
I checked my tanks ammo; only 2 sabot rounds left.
Checked the AP guide again and saw that regular AP rounds would only penetrate about 9 at that range. :(
I checked another nearby friendly tank, and he had a full load of 15 sabots.
Brought my tank (with 15 sabots) through the tree line and engaged the Tiger.
Two hits, both got penetration 13 causing * then **** damage. Then the Tiger popped smoke.
---
I don't consult the pen guide regularly, but perhaps once or twice a battle.
I've also found it useful to check the penetration of enemy weapons.
For example, if I'm facing a lot of 5cm L42 guns, and I've fielded a company of tanks with front armour of 8, it's useful to know at what range the enemy guns pose a real threat.
In this case you would want to check the best pen, not average (the best pen is usually 1 or 2 better than the average).
Tanks with front armour of 8 would probably be mostly safe beyond 300m, but if the 5cm guns have sabot rounds, my tanks would need to be beyond 600m.
(05-21-2010, 01:00 PM)Cross Wrote: [ -> ] (05-21-2010, 11:07 AM)Gila Wrote: [ -> ]One can do alot of conculating,how fast you have moved,or the target has,angle,elevation warhead size, penetration values yadda yadda..
What it comes down to is " just pure Luck" and trial and error and maybe some gut feeling?.
I just let the game engine do all that mathmetical stuff for me,
Fire and pray:bow:
Hi Gila,
I agree that the best - and most fun - way to play is using your 'gut instinct', but only after you have some experience; and you still need to do calculations once in while.
Let me give an example from a recent PBEM battle:
I pulled my tank out of a tree line and spotted a Tiger tank 600yds away in rough ground. To engage or not to engage :chin:
Checked my AP Pen Guide and found that my tank's sabot penetration at 600yds was 14 (average), Tiger front armour: 12 :cool:
I checked my tanks ammo; only 2 sabot rounds left.
Checked the AP guide again and saw that regular AP rounds would only penetrate about 9 at that range. :(
I checked another nearby friendly tank, and he had a full load of 15 sabots.
Brought my tank (with 15 sabots) through the tree line and engaged the Tiger.
Two hits, both got penetration 13 causing * then **** damage. Then the Tiger popped smoke.
---
I don't consult the pen guide regularly, but perhaps once or twice a battle.
I've also found it useful to check the penetration of enemy weapons.
For example, if I'm facing a lot of 5cm L42 guns, and I've fielded a company of tanks with front armour of 8, it's useful to know at what range the enemy guns pose a real threat.
In this case you would want to check the best pen, not average (the best pen is usually 1 or 2 better than the average).
Tanks with front armour of 8 would probably be mostly safe beyond 300m, but if the 5cm guns have sabot rounds, my tanks would need to be beyond 600m.
I can't believe i spelled calculations the way i did:rolleyes:
:whis:
Ok, I think we are getting there...but no clear winner.
But, I do have to say I sympathize with Gila's "pray and shoot" theory.
So, basically penetration is the big factor in dealing with armor. If I understand Cross correctly, the range/pen chart he created will assist with that. This is important, because I have been frequently frustrated by great direct hits on armor with no joy - but obviously I should have let them get closer. That's one thing I was looking for: a way to know just how close to let them get.
Warhead, if I understand correctly is just how big a bang the projectile makes. Obviously, more explosive more bang and more of the bad things associated with that. I'd assume warhead size really doesn't matter on a sabot type round, just because of the nature of what it is. But, where this may really be important is on soft targets - A 16inch Naval gun's warhead will certainly create more havoc on open infantry than 60mm mortar. That's warhead, yes?
What I still don't have a good grasp of is kill. Is that roughly the weapons ability to take out whatever it shoots at? But, certainly that definition would vary greatly depending on what you were shooting and what you were shoot at. An MG will certainly "kill" an infantryman, but it won't "kill" at Tiger. Can you guys try and dumb it down a little more (maybe that's not possible)?
Nick S.
Quote:Weapon Data
KILL - Rating vs soft targets first number is using HE
2nd number if one is for other ammo types generally.
Soft targets are unarmored so trucks & troops the higher the kill the more damage you are likely to cause more damage so 2 dead instead of 1.
It has absolutley nothing to do with a weapons effects vs a vehicle unless it is unarmored.
The ratings under PEN HEAT & APCR are what is used vs armour if you reread my post.
Vs Armour you compare the above ratings against the armour ratings allowing for range.
Example
Ignoring range
50 AP or APCR will defeat lower rated armour 1-49 but bounce off higher rated armour 50+
Dont worry about anything else thats the basics.
There is a bit of randomness so if the 2 ratings are close it may still survive or just be damaged rather than destroyed.