Comparing the OOB for Kursk with the OOB in the back of the Glantz book, there are some significant differences, for example
Central, Steppe & Voronezh Front - Glantz
1,426,352 Men (combat strength)
27,663 Guns & Mortars
518 MRLs
4,938 tanks & SP Guns
Central, Steppe & Voronezh Front - HPS
579,798 Men
12,785 guns
7,145 vehicles
compared to
AG Center + AG South - Glantz
780,900 men
(Glantz does not list German guns)
2928 tanks and AG Guns
AG Center + AG South - HPS
268,595 Men
4520 vehicles
Note the vehicles are not directly comparable - the Glantz numbers are tanks & sp guns while the HPS numbers are for all vehicles. For example, the XXXXVII Panzer Corps the tank totals are in almost exact agreement between Glantz and HPS. Similarly the 5th Guards Tank Corps is not materially different from Glantz in the number of tanks.
For the Soviets at the individual Army level there is over a 2-1 difference in manpower between Glantz and HPS. The Soviet Rifle divisions tend to be under 4000 men in the HPS oob where a full strength soviet rifle division was about 11,000
My question is the differences in men and guns, is it an issue of game mechanics or something else?
Probably you will receive more detailed aswers to this...
In the game you'll only see the fighting men. In an infantry division most of the people was to support the fighting men. In a USA division there was the most people supporting each fighting men. I can't remember the exact number, but maybe it was 4 non fighting men to support each fighting men?, that is, if in a full strenght USA infantry division there were about 7000 fighting men, the full oob of that division was about 28.000 men. In HPS you'll only see those 7000 men, and not the 21000 men supporting...
For guns&mortars. Most of the small mortars and small guns are factored into the combat strenght of the units (in the AA, assault, soft or hard attack factor). Only the big guns are represented.
And about vehicles: they are not only big tanks and SP guns (SU, or Stug), but armed halftrucks, AA halftrucks, recon vehicles, etc.
I hope that this will help!
Also the OOB, I believe came from Glantz's Colossus Reborn (2005) - NOT his Kursk book (1999). There is a very good handbook that comes with the above mentioned book that has VERY detailed OB's for the period 1941 - 1943.
You will find that Glantz will have evolving OOB's and his more recent books are more accurate than his earlier ones....
(03-26-2010, 03:25 PM)bwv Wrote: [ -> ]For the Soviets at the individual Army level there is over a 2-1 difference in manpower between Glantz and HPS. The Soviet Rifle divisions tend to be under 4000 men in the HPS oob where a full strength soviet rifle division was about 11,000
Well, a Soviet rifle division was seldom, if ever, at full strength. They actually were mostly around 50% at all times AFAIK, I have read that they had a tendency of just simply providing minimal replacements to existing rifle divisions and would simply create new ones when those were destroyed. So, they definitely received replacements, but only such that kept them at moderate strengths. PzCs is correct in this regard, and the OOBs in these books usually deal with full strength numbers which can be pure fantasy on the Eastern Front.
thanks for the answers, something still does not sit right though. Maybe its just that I am getting my ass kicked in the CG, but it seems too easy for the Germans to blast through Soviet lines. The results for the K43 campaign game show German victories 24/30 for the stock campaign and 5/7 for the alt campaign, with a preponderance of major victories
(03-30-2010, 12:24 AM)bwv Wrote: [ -> ]thanks for the answers, something still does not sit right though. Maybe its just that I am getting my ass kicked in the CG, but it seems too easy for the Germans to blast through Soviet lines.
Try playing the Alt version. Having bunker lines instead of a trench lines helps a wee bit!:)
Well for all the factors about artillery I reckon the Soviets in the game are at about half strength.
I don't have the exact figures to hand at the moment, but I was shocked when I did at the discrepency in the game to the OOB's I have seen.
This was the time when soviet artillery was really beggining to stack up lots of tubes to a kilometer.
It however never surprises me how German only players can always find a missing unit here and there from the OOB. But you dare to suggest some missing Russian units and all hell and high water is used to discredit your findings.
Gordon
Part of the reason it's easier to document the Germans (and other western nations) is that the available records are simply better than available Soviet era records. HPS uses Glantz extensively in their Russian OOB construction, but not exclusively, and even his stuff changed in terms of accuracy over the years and as more and more data becomes available. Some erroneous numbers have been quoted so many times since the 1950s that they have become unquestioned and are probably wrong too.
And none of that is to say that the folks who are pointing out the difference between pointy end of the spear (what you see in game) and shaft end of the spear (the difference between game strength and paper strength), are wrong. That is also a very big part of the difference.
At the end of the day, HPS has since Smolensk 41 always made it clear that for every OOB source available there is also one that contradicts it, and they make the best choices they can regarding accuracy. But rather than debate customers over numbers they provide us the editors so we can "fix" the OOBs to what our source material says they should be should we so desire.
(03-30-2010, 08:19 PM)Gordons HQ Wrote: [ -> ]Well for all the factors about artillery I reckon the Soviets in the game are at about half strength.
I don't have the exact figures to hand at the moment, but I was shocked when I did at the discrepency in the game to the OOB's I have seen.
This was the time when soviet artillery was really beggining to stack up lots of tubes to a kilometer.
What you are forgetting about as far as the artillery numbers go, is that the number of tubes in the rifle regiments are factored into the hard and soft factors of the regiment. A typical RR at this time had 27 82mm mortars, 6 120mm mortars, 4 76mm guns and 6 45mm AT guns. This totals 43 tubes/Regt and 129 tubes/Div.
Typically in books like Glantz's "Kursk" the number of artillery tubes would include divisional and regimental tubes except for the smaller 50mm mortars. So these regimental numbers would have to be added into the total guns shown in the OOB to arrive at the numbers shown in the book.
All of the Army artillery units as shown in the BSSA, the official Soviet OOB, are included in the game OOB. In addition they are all shown at full streenght, which is very debatable. Also divisional artillery is include except for the divisional AA guns which where left out intentionally.
All that said if you feel that there are missing artillery units, or the the TO&E of particular units are incorrect then please send us the info to look at. I never consider an OOB to be complete. In fact Glenn usually has to pry it from my hands so we can finish a game
. Kursk was done awhile ago and my research collection has grown since them.
Michael Avanzini
Thank you Micheal. Your openness to this question is what sets HPS apart from other game companies.
Dog Soldier