WinSp battle presume that destruction of enemy troops and equipment combined with taking and holding ground are the only criteria for victory.
However, in some battles this is not the case. Examples of non-territorial battles would include, inter alai, convoy ambushes, counter insurgency search and destroy missions and raids on artillery bases.
In a Convoy Ambush the ambusher seeks to destroy enemy equipment but has no real interest I, or capability for, securing ground. If this is between two regular armies the ambusher would be paratroops or the like who would withdraw after the battle. If it is between a regular army and insurgents the insurgents would disperse after the battle.
The Search and Destroy assumes that a regular army is searching for insurgent supply dumps, holding ground is secondary to finding the supply dumps.
The Artillery Base Assault assumes that paratroop or the like have gone behind enemy lines to take out enemy artillery, ( just like the movie Guns of Navarone) again at the end of the battle they would be withdrawn. This could also be used with insurgents attacking the artillery base.
Finally there are some ideas for running 2 or 3 simultaneous battles where the events on one map affect the operation on the other(s).
These rules are at the stage of “Beta testing” any feedback or suggestions would be welcome.
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(03-24-2010, 10:57 PM)Gibratar Wrote: [ -> ]WinSp battle presume that destruction of enemy troops and equipment combined with taking and holding ground are the only criteria for victory.
However, in some battles this is not the case. Examples of non-territorial battles would include, inter alai, convoy ambushes, counter insurgency search and destroy missions and raids on artillery bases.
In a Convoy Ambush the ambusher seeks to destroy enemy equipment but has no real interest I, or capability for, securing ground. If this is between two regular armies the ambusher would be paratroops or the like who would withdraw after the battle. If it is between a regular army and insurgents the insurgents would disperse after the battle.
The Search and Destroy assumes that a regular army is searching for insurgent supply dumps, holding ground is secondary to finding the supply dumps.
The Artillery Base Assault assumes that paratroop or the like have gone behind enemy lines to take out enemy artillery, ( just like the movie Guns of Navarone) again at the end of the battle they would be withdrawn. This could also be used with insurgents attacking the artillery base.
Finally there are some ideas for running 2 or 3 simultaneous battles where the events on one map affect the operation on the other(s).
These rules are at the stage of “Beta testing” any feedback or suggestions would be welcome.
I've used similar victory conditions and they work well as long as they are realistic and give both sides a chance to win.
Just to be clear - there are no restrictions re victory conditions for ladder games, as far as both players agree. You can use whatever comes to your mind really.
Hi,
The "Special Rules" are intended to increase the realism of non-territorial battles.
They clearly state that they can be modified by the players before starting the battle.
The intent is that, if they become popular, 2 player could just agree to use say, the "convoy ambush" rules. This would save them having to come up with a set of rules each time they did a "convoy ambush." In the same way we just agree to use the Weasel score sheet unless both players agree to something else.
If anyone has any ideas to improve these, please post them here.
I would be especially interested if anyone has any ideas about introducing civilians into some of the insurgent games. The problem we found was that they would trigger opportunity fire from the Force 2 during the insurgent turn. The insurgent player could use them to reveal concealed Force 2 troops.
I don't believe that anyone has tried the coordinated battles before. Note these are quite different from a campaign.
Is there any way to set up a battle and/or senario in something other than the standard chessboard, you on the left side - me on the right?
For instance, if you wanted a senario where a group was surrounded in enemy territory and other units had to fight in to aid them or "downed aircrew" senario - where a size 0 unit had to evade enemy forces behind enemy lines, with a rescue force on the way - could you do this in SP?
Also, has anyone had "civilians" set up in a battle. Meaning one side has some units that they are required to turn the weapons off and that they can't move (without pregame consent), that represent civilans. You could have them appear identical to the fighting units in insurgent, civil war, guerilla war battles - or use an allied force that looks a little different than the fighting units, so the civies are more recognizable by the opposing side. The obvious rationale would be to penalize the other player for any civilian casulaties. To further hamper the other player, you could also set penalties for destruction of buildings/structures.
Has anybody done anything like that?
In the "Road to Baghdad" game, hexes can be abitrarily assigned in the scenerio editor to one side or the other.
That would be a nice feature to have in WinSP
(03-27-2010, 01:56 AM)GUNSLNGR Wrote: [ -> ]Is there any way to set up a battle and/or senario in something other than the standard chessboard, you on the left side - me on the right?
For instance, if you wanted a senario where a group was surrounded in enemy territory and other units had to fight in to aid them or "downed aircrew" senario - where a size 0 unit had to evade enemy forces behind enemy lines, with a rescue force on the way - could you do this in SP?
Also, has anyone had "civilians" set up in a battle. Meaning one side has some units that they are required to turn the weapons off and that they can't move (without pregame consent), that represent civilans. You could have them appear identical to the fighting units in insurgent, civil war, guerilla war battles - or use an allied force that looks a little different than the fighting units, so the civies are more recognizable by the opposing side. The obvious rationale would be to penalize the other player for any civilian casulaties. To further hamper the other player, you could also set penalties for destruction of buildings/structures.
Has anybody done anything like that?
If you do as a scenerio so in the editor what you ask is easy.
All forces can be set up anywhere on the map so surrounding is easy, same with advance scouts etc.
For things like downed aircrew can easily setup by turning into a sort of campaign so some units are pre deployed anywhere on the map & the rest can be deployed by the player following normal restrictions.
Remember to set sides rally hexes if not standard left right can do for the side or individual formations. You probably do this anyway when you drop Paras if you dont want them to route towards the enemy.
Civilians does not work well as one side has to own them, if they move will draw opfire as still considered enemy units.
To diferentiate them buy as Allies fairly sure MBT has them in United Nations OOB WW2 check Red Green Blue or make your own.
Have done a WW2 game where rather than civilians had wounded who had a speed of 3 & SMG only as a weapon but were worth about 100 points a piece. Proved most tricky keeping your vehicles alive was paramont so could use them to transport the wounded as based victory on getting them across the map. Did as a German breakout before the Ruskies slamed the door.
There are several other things you can do like advanced recon etc using rules & standard game setup rather than the editor to give more variety to your games.
Editor can be used with some degree of success to set up assaults if attacker buys his force first.
(03-27-2010, 05:46 AM)Imp Wrote: [ -> ]If you do as a scenerio so in the editor what you ask is easy.
All forces can be set up anywhere on the map so surrounding is easy, same with advance scouts etc.
I have been remiss in not playing around in the editor, which is good news to me as playing same senarios and battles gets fairly vanilla after awhile. Vanilla is good, but I like chocolate now and again.
In regard to civilians, my thought would be that the player "owning" them couldn't move them, unless one of his units occupied the same initial hex and then moved into the same hex as the civies. Like a hostage type situation, the civilians can only give cover as long as they're alive.
Kinda busy at the mo have a play with the editor its pretty powerfull & can use a few other tricks including special rules to create something diffrent for a change.
Playing with civies some thoughts
Could possibly work if assign to side that needs to keep them alive & make expensive so priority is saving them.
They can move only if start in a hex with a freindly unit, the armed unit must move first & the civies must follow, assume they are moving as a group ie escort.
The escorting squad could choose to fire drawing more op fire before the civies move to try & stop fire at them.
If civies become pinned so cant follow does the squad need to go back & get them, probably.
Problem with this is both will normally end the turn in the same hex though it will realisticly make progress slower as civies always enter a hex containing another unit, might want to give them speed of 7.
Another thought is they must always be in same hex or adj to be moved.
Have used similar for convoys escorts act normally but convoy vehicles must try & remain adjacent to each other. No need to take literaly move lead vehicle till it takes fire then others trace its path. If a unit is destroyed others may take a diffrent adjacent path to avoid it but vehicles ahead must slow till the rest catch up if a gap appears. Can then rule that if 50% of the convoy is destroyed they can cut & run removing the restrictions. A vehicle that routes is deemed to have left the convoy.
If both players are willing to dable a bit even adjusting the rules for balance as play you can set up a lot of diffrent things for a change.
Crews rushing to man tanks guns etc in a night raid, could set up so computer controls patrols round the camp & have a rule that defending player cannot move anyone till shots are fired or the turn after.
Buildings as targets using democharges or mols, if made 2 stationary attacks against considered rubbled on fire even if isnt for victory purposes. Or use modified ammo dumps landed planes etc.
If you have a dable with the editor & have any questions suggest setup a new thread for them, will get round to them assuming I know the answer :)
(03-24-2010, 10:57 PM)Gibratar Wrote: [ -> ]WinSp battle presume that destruction of enemy troops and equipment combined with taking and holding ground are the only criteria for victory.
However, in some battles this is not the case. Examples of non-territorial battles would include, inter alai, convoy ambushes, counter insurgency search and destroy missions and raids on artillery bases.
In a Convoy Ambush the ambusher seeks to destroy enemy equipment but has no real interest I, or capability for, securing ground. If this is between two regular armies the ambusher would be paratroops or the like who would withdraw after the battle. If it is between a regular army and insurgents the insurgents would disperse after the battle.
The Search and Destroy assumes that a regular army is searching for insurgent supply dumps, holding ground is secondary to finding the supply dumps.
The Artillery Base Assault assumes that paratroop or the like have gone behind enemy lines to take out enemy artillery, ( just like the movie Guns of Navarone) again at the end of the battle they would be withdrawn. This could also be used with insurgents attacking the artillery base.
Finally there are some ideas for running 2 or 3 simultaneous battles where the events on one map affect the operation on the other(s).
These rules are at the stage of “Beta testing” any feedback or suggestions would be welcome.
Only had time for a quick look but its obvious you have spent some time on this & its layed out nice & clear:thumbs_up:
Will certainly take some of the ideas even if don't use as is & have a couple of suggestions as alternatives for similar missions though have not thought through.
Attack on arty base (or any rear area)
For a fast simple setup with flags just press C (clear) set all to neutral & leave in the corner they start in. Value is not important as they play no part in the battle but 2 seconds to reset all if wish.
This assumes scouting units know rough area & are hunting for them.
If you want the area to be given away each arty troop could have to fire on a certain turn based on map width, just aim at the flags.
Example has 4 troops has to fire at least one troop a turn from turn 5 till all have fired.
Any infantry in the rear area defender has should be none combatants.
Either just use worst troops as in conscripts perhaps turning some weapons off at game start or could make low experience troops armed with that countries SMG or carbine.
Convoy
2-3 diffrent routes across preferably linked in places so can change reasonably dense terrain or low visibility.
This means searcher is probably spread a bit thin till locates them making things more difficult.
None freindly vehicle terrain like Normandy with bocage provides great cover for the convoy & restricts attackers reinforcement options.
Also mentioned some convoy rules I have used in the previous post.
Convoy carry capacity for ease of play assumed all vehicles were full but could squeeze a couple extra in so had carry capacity of 3 or 4.
Enough that a few could have scouts on board as half squads riding in some vehicles.