(03-25-2010, 09:54 AM)Bear Wrote: [ -> ] (03-23-2010, 05:21 PM)Krazy Kat Wrote: [ -> ]An interesting article from the Weider History Group
http://www.historynet.com/david-m-glantz.htm
The horrifying scenes from the beginning of Enemy at the gates seem to be true afterall?
Enemy at the Gates:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=43f_1175395150&o=1
The original book, from which the movie took the title and a few pages covered Vassili Zaitsev, is one of the best WW2 histories you'll ever read:
ENEMY AT THE GATES, William Craig, 1973
This historical story will stick to you forever.
I read the book Craig book years ago Unfortunately some of it is pure fiction. The "duel" fought between Zaitsev & the German Major Koenig never took place. Noted historian Jason Mark (Death of the Leaping Horsemen, Island of Fire, etc.) could not find any mention of a Major Koenig anywhere in the German records pertaining to the battle. See Stalingrad: How the Red Army Survived the German Onslaught by Michael K. Jones for details.
(03-26-2010, 12:57 PM)Gasbag Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2010, 09:54 AM)Bear Wrote: [ -> ] (03-23-2010, 05:21 PM)Krazy Kat Wrote: [ -> ]An interesting article from the Weider History Group
http://www.historynet.com/david-m-glantz.htm
The horrifying scenes from the beginning of Enemy at the gates seem to be true afterall?
Enemy at the Gates:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=43f_1175395150&o=1
The original book, from which the movie took the title and a few pages covered Vassili Zaitsev, is one of the best WW2 histories you'll ever read:
ENEMY AT THE GATES, William Craig, 1973
This historical story will stick to you forever.
I read the book Craig book years ago Unfortunately some of it is pure fiction. The "duel" fought between Zaitsev & the German Major Koenig never took place. Noted historian Jason Mark (Death of the Leaping Horsemen, Island of Fire, etc.) could not find any mention of a Major Koenig anywhere in the German records pertaining to the battle. See Stalingrad: How the Red Army Survived the German Onslaught by Michael K. Jones for details.
Yes, the German sniper Konig may be fiction and/or part a mythology added to Zaitsev's achievements. A small part of the book that shouldn't devalue it.
The problem with the Craig book is that it was written in 1973, when authors had virtually no access to Russian/Soviet sources other than officially approved memoirs (for example V.I. Chuikov's memoirs) which frequently exaggerated the size & strength of their German opponents. An example of this exaggeration is the inclusion of the 76th & 44th Infantry Divisions in the German OOB for the Stalingrad attack. Neither of these divisions took any part in the city fighting. The memoirs written during the Soviet era also tended to minimize the contributions of non-Russian forces and emphasize the role of "Great-Russian" ones. For instance, the 13th Guards Rifle Division is listed as being elite while the 284th Rifle Division's (raised in the Sumy region) role in the battle is played down. In fact both of these divisions suffered heavy casualties during the May to July period. By the time that they reached Stalingrad in September both units were largely manned by poorly equipped reservists and raw recruits. Errors like these have been carried forward into most western histories like Craig's and Beevor's.
The Glantz & House Stalingrad trilogy (volumes 1 & 2 were published last year) will most likely be the definitive account of the battle for some time to come.
"In a forest of two million trees, if we point out that ten or twenty thousand don't look right; does the forest cease to exist?"
I have been down this road too often and do not seek nor desire to enter into historical semantics or data critiques.
I will close with this, in honor of the men of the 13.Guards Rifle Division. They (maybe 10,000 men?) crossed the Volga, 15 September, into S'grad to plug the center at Mamayev Kurgan (hill 102).
The 13. held the center against the German 71. and 295. Infantry Divisions. One notable stand is called "Pavlov's House".
This division saved the Russian defense that day and remnants continued there for another six weeks.
I originally offered a good book to compliment a good movie.
My bit is said and done.
Over and Out.
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to start an argument or pick a fight with you regarding this. The Craig book was good for it's time. I was simply trying to point out that it (and later works) written in the 60's to early 90's had to rely on somewhat flawed sources which towed the official Communist line (otherwise they wouldn't have been published).
Although it wasn't totally accurate I enjoyed the movie & still have it on dvd.
...
(03-29-2010, 12:45 PM)Gasbag Wrote: [ -> ]Don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to start an argument or pick a fight with you regarding this. The Craig book was good for it's time. I was simply trying to point out that it (and later works) written in the 60's to early 90's had to rely on somewhat flawed sources which towed the official Communist line (otherwise they wouldn't have been published).
Although it wasn't totally accurate I enjoyed the movie & still have it on dvd.
...
We're good.
Sorry for misunderstanding, a notorious reputation of email.
Too often there are raves, rants and flamers. The Blitz is and should be a place for us to be "safe and secure" with our brothers in games. After all, the Game is what brought us here.
And the historical nature of the scenarios we play are an extension of our respect for the the living and the dead in those moments in our world history.