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I played a few scenarios as Russians and experienced all the weaknesses of it's infantry in comparison to Germans. Especially MG Platoons. It is well known that MG42 was the best MG in the world in it's time. But Russian MG platoons represented in the game are equipped only with Maxims which range is approx 1 km. In comparison to 1 1/2km of MG 42 combined with their firepower difference 10/5/2/1 to 16/12/10/8/6/4, isn't it too much? Besides Degtyarev DP/DPM machine gun (adopted as an standard LMG of Red Army in 1927 and modernised in 1943-44 to became DPM) is not represented in the game at all, though it was very common during WW2. With less firepower then MG42 (and I believe more then Maxim :chin:) it's range is also 1 1/2km .

I am just preparing for 1945 scenario and my Guards (!) MG platoon is equipped with Maxim. A little a... funny? Wouldn' it be nice to equip at least Guards MG platoons with Degtyarev mg? I think that would shift the balance slightly closer to realism, wouldn't it?

Skryabrin, I just missed out on an auction of a Soviet Combat Manual on the Degtyarev Machine Gun. I would like to see how they used them in combat formations and their doctrine of use.
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From here is some descriptions:

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/cgi-...P&offset=0

"The Degtyarev DP was a Soviet light machine-gun produced from 1928 to 1941, entering service with the Russian army in 1928 and remaining in service with infantry squads until the 1950s. It takes a 7.62 mm x 54R cartridge from a 47-round drum magazine and fires in automatic mode only at a cyclic rate of 550 or 600 rounds-per-minute and a muzzle velocity of 840 meters per second to an effective range of 800 meters. The Degtyarev DP has a 605 mm long barrel and is fitted with a cylindrical post foresight and a leaf tangent with a V rearsight.

The Degtyarev DPM was a Soviet light machine-gun produced from 1941 to 1950, and was a modification of the Degtyarev DP which replaced the Degtyarev DP in the army. It had the same specifications as the earlier Degtyarev DP, the modifications being primarily structural to improve reliability in the field."


From here is seeing one in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0mc-_rdVe4

I was struck by how much it looked like a "Lewis" gun.
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I'll dig around and see how they were used in combat formations.



RR

Skryabin Wrote:Besides Degtyarev DP/DPM machine gun (adopted as an standard LMG of Red Army in 1927 and modernised in 1943-44 to became DPM) is not represented in the game at all, though it was very common during WW2.

I'm not sure that it's correct to say the DP is not represented in the game at all. It is probably present as part of the organic firepower of various Soviet infantry units. Not every machine gun type will be represented by separate and distinct MG units. Similarly, MG 42s and 34s are present not only in separate machine gun platoons but as part of the organic firepower of some German infantry units. That's one reason why German infantry has such ferocious firepower and is so bloody hard to close with.

Skryabin Wrote:I am just preparing for 1945 scenario and my Guards (!) MG platoon is equipped with Maxim. A little a... funny? Wouldn' it be nice to equip at least Guards MG platoons with Degtyarev mg? I think that would shift the balance slightly closer to realism, wouldn't it?

You're right about that, the DShK 1938 is perhaps the MG they should be equipped with, if they are heavy MG platoons. I wonder though if you're not confusing the DShK 1938 with the Degtaryev?? -- he (Degtaryev) did design both, but they are very different weapons. I don't think the Degtaryev -- the cheap drum-fed contraption -- has quite the firepower you may imagine.

/TJD

MrRoadrunner Wrote:I would like to see how they used them in combat formations and their doctrine of use.

I have just read that it was 1 mg per Rifle squad... so I guess in reality it was no mg platoons? :chin:

Did Germans have? like we operate them separately MG platoons?

Quote:[i]"The Degtyarev DP was a Soviet light machine-gun produced from 1928 to 1941, entering service with the Russian army in 1928 and remaining in service with infantry squads until the 1950s. It takes a 7.62 mm x 54R cartridge from a 47-round drum magazine and fires in automatic mode only at a cyclic rate of 550 or 600 rounds-per-minute and a muzzle velocity of 840 meters per second to an effective range of 800 meters.

This is funny! All English sources say it is 800. All Russian's - 1500m. A "little" difference ;)

I guess I'll have to check it myself


Dmitriy

TJD Wrote:

Skryabin Wrote:Besides Degtyarev DP/DPM machine gun (adopted as an standard LMG of Red Army in 1927 and modernised in 1943-44 to became DPM) is not represented in the game at all, though it was very common during WW2.

I'm not sure that it's correct to say the DP is not represented in the game at all. It is probably present as part of the organic firepower of various Soviet infantry units.

This make sence especially allow for what I've just read.

TJD Wrote:I wonder though if you're not confusing the DShK 1938 with the Degtaryev?? -- he (Degtaryev) did design both, but they are very different weapons. I don't think the Degtaryev -- the cheap drum-fed contraption -- has quite the firepower you may imagine.

/TJD

No, I was talking about Degtaryev DP, anyway sould be better then Maxim. Not sure, but I saw somewere that DShK 1938 was considered like AA?

Dmitriy

Skryabin Wrote:

MrRoadrunner Wrote:I would like to see how they used them in combat formations and their doctrine of use.

I have just read that it was 1 mg per Rifle squad... so I guess in reality it was no mg platoons? :chin:

Did Germans have? like we operate them separately MG platoons?

Not to belabor the point but I do think you're fundamentally confused about the nature of the Degtaryev. This is a light machine gun, roughly equivalent to the US BAR. It was used, like the BAR, as the squad base of fire. All modern infantry tactics are essentially based on the protection and support of the automatic weapons and are designed around them. There were no separate Degtaryev platoons because unlike the MG42 it could not be configured as a heavy as well as a light machine gun. In game terms, the Degtaryev is represented in the basic firepower of Russian infantry units in the same way the BAR is present in the numbers for US infantry platoons.

Quote:This is funny! All English sources say it is 800. All Russian's - 1500m. A "little" difference ;)

I guess I'll have to check it myself


Dmitriy

You may be confusing Maximum Range with Effective Range. Bullets can travel much farther than they can be accurately or effectively fired.

/TJD

TJD Wrote:You may be confusing Maximum Range with Effective Range. Bullets can travel much farther than they can be accurately or effectively fired.

I am not sure but in Russian it sounds like "take aim at" range and I translated it as "effective". In one of the comparative tables it is 1372m for BAR M1922, 1500m for Degtaryev DP and 2000m for MG42. And it varies from source to source as I see now.

About that it was used as the squad base of fire you are right. And it was a light machine gun. There was no any Degtaryev MG platoons.

Thank you for feedback,

Dmitriy