Forums

What about this batallion? It's in the OOB but listed as ***Not Present*** ???

"The first units of the batallion arrived on the 14th jan to Pomosjnaja in Ukraine and the BatCO Major Glässgen contacted div. Grossdeutschland which the bat was assigned to join. During the two weeks the batallion was assigned to Grossdeutchland it never saw combat, though 2. Kompanie was tasked to defend a front line position. As previously mentioned the batallion recieved transfer orders to XXXXVII. PzKorps on the 27th january 1117 hrs and as early as 1230 hrs the 67 combat-ready tanks started to move. Travel distance was not very far, only 75 km, nevertheless some losses occurred during the march. One Panther caught fire (engine), just outside Malaja Vyski and was a total writeoff. One tow vehicle also caught fire but it could be put out in time to save the vehicle. It was a serious blow to the batallion that one of it's two towing vehicles was put out of working order. In the coming days many vehicles would have to be towed. One Panther crashed through a bridge and with some difficulties it could be salvaged. Four other Panthers developed technical problems and had to be repaired, but during the night the rest of the batallion arrived to the Slatopol (Zlatopol) area." [During the night to 28th january that is]

This batallion participated in a counterattack aimed at re-establishing contact with Kampfguppe von Brese, which was holding out positioned on a hill 2-3 km NE of Kapitanovka. Also, a few Panthers of PzRg 15 /11. PzDiv. held out on a hill just E of Kapitanovka under command of Major Walter von Sievers.
The south end of Tisjkovka (Tishkova) was held by german infantry which also held positions S of Pisarivka (Pisarevka) while Pisarivka itself was held by soviet troops.

This is all from the book 'Tjerkassy 44' by Niklas Zetterling and Anders Frankson ISBN 978-91-7263-857-0. In the book is a detailed description of the batallion's part in the assault of jan 28th. It was a unit fresh from France originally intended for 26. PzDiv. in Italy, with no combat experience, and they performed poorly. Almost all officers (bn CO and 3 of 4 coy COs) were lost early in the assault adding to the difficulties, and poor leadership displayed by Büsing who took command of the batallion and led it from a command post some distance behind the action. All this added to the crews inexperience and the assault did not meet it's goals during that day and was forced to continue in darkness, which all contributed to the high losses.

So... the I./PzRg 26, a substantial force with it's 61 Panthers ready for action on the morning of 28th jan, should be available around Zlatopol on the morning of the 28th. Historically this force was squandered away by inefficient use (no supporting infantry), inexperienced crews and poor leadership. Used properly it should be a significant threat to the south flank of Konev's 2. Ukrainian Front.

So I guess my question is, why was this force left out? I've never looked at OOB files nevermind edit them, but would be happy to if I knew how to. Was surprised to see no scenario of this battle of 28th jan, as it was a decisive fight which the germans lost.

I am afraid I can't answer yoru question as these aspect of the design were made by someone who I've lost contact with. His sources were archive material which I had some photocopies of. But there would be no way to know where this reference came from now.

Anyway - you can of course adjust teh scns as you see fit.

Glenn

Thanks for the reply Glenn. Maybe he did not have time to add this unit to the scenario. It's there it's just ***Not Present***. It's a very significant unit which could have altered the course of the battle. It didn't because of above mentioned reasons but it would be very interesting to see how the Panthers could perform in the scenario. I'll look into the .scn file and how to edit it. Which program should I open the file with?

Looking at the OOB file 'Korsun0125.oob' is the file used for the scenario. The unit is in the file but not on the map. So I guess it's all a matter of putting the unit on the map and giving it the right strength. 71 Panthers left Grossdeutschland to join XXXXVII. PzKorps, 67 arrived, one of the losses was a writeoff.

33vortex Wrote:Thanks for the reply Glenn. Maybe he did not have time to add this unit to the scenario. It's there it's just ***Not Present***.

No - not this guy - he wouldn't put in a not like that without seeing it somewhere. And he include a Pz Div - not sure of the ID number now which countermarched back and forth and had NO EFFECT on the battle even though it could have had an impact. This Unit was added to one of the Scns as a WHAT IT.

Quote:It's a very significant unit which could have altered the course of the battle. It didn't because of above mentioned reasons but it would be very interesting to see how the Panthers could perform in the scenario.

"COULD HAVE" is the key part of your remark - again maybe this is the same unit that we are talking about here. In any case, Jim Dunnam from what I know would not mark a unit as "Not Present" because he didn't have time - just not that mans style.

(Jim by the way is a member of the Texas State Government - or was - like i said, I am no longer in tough with him)

Quote:I'll look into the .scn file and how to edit it.

That would be the best thing at this point.

Quote:Which program should I open the file with?

pcedit.exe is the scn editor. I'd do a SAVE AS and change the file so you retain the original for backup if nothing else.

Glenn

Glenn Saunders Wrote:"COULD HAVE" is the key part of your remark - again maybe this is the same unit that we are talking about here. In any case, Jim Dunnam from what I know would not mark a unit as "Not Present" because he didn't have time - just not that mans style.

No that's the 24. PzDiv. you're talking of, which is a completely different unit. This is a batallion size unit, I./PzRegt.26. It was reassigned to 8. AOK to assist the severely weakened 3. 11. and 14. PzDivs of XXXXVII. PzKorps.

At the start of this battle both sides were already severely weakened by months of continuous fighting. Most german divisions had been conducting a fighting withdrawal ever since Zitadelle, the Kursk operation.

Looking at the .oob now and the scenario file as well. The unit is in the OOB but nowhere on the map??? How is a unit added to the map? Is there a scenario tutorial somewhere? I think I saw a link some time ago.



The book referred to in OP says on page 95:

Heavy German equipment in the Korsun area on 25th jan 1944.

Heeresgruppe (?) B - 0 veh, 14 arty, 11 AT
88. Div. - 0 veh, 22 arty, 14 AT
XXXXII. Korpstruppen - 0 veh, 0 arty, 0 AT
198. Div. - 0 veh, ~36 arty, 14 AT
34. Div. - 0 veh, ~33 arty, 14 AT
VII. Korpstruppen - 23 veh, ~10 arty, 0 AT
SS-Wiking - ~20 veh, 52 arty, 12 AT (of which 7 tracked veh)
SS-Wallonien - 10 veh, 0 arty, 9 AT
57. Div. - 0 veh, 50 arty, 8 AT
72. Div. - 0 veh, 33 arty, 14 AT
389 Div. - 0 veh, 26 arty, 12 AT
XI. Korpstruppen - ~9 veh, 16 arty, 0 AT
3. PzDiv. - ~20 veh, 22 arty, 10 AT (of which 5 tracked veh)
106. Div. - 0 veh, 31 arty, 7 AT
320. Div. - 0 veh, 24 arty, 17 AT
282. Div. - 0 veh, 36 arty, 10 AT
14. PzDiv. - 15 veh, 24 arty, 15 AT
11. PzDiv. - ~25 veh, 26 arty, 11 AT (of which 5 tracked veh)
XXXXVII. Korpstruppen - ~20 veh, ~11 arty, 0 AT

Total: 142 veh (Panzer & StuG), 493 arty, 178 AT

Okay, I've edited the #2 scenario file (the early release of 24. PzDiv) and added PzRegt 26 to be released on 0600 hrs 28th jan. Can I send this file somewhere for review?

OK - now I am confused.

You said:
"What about this batallion? It's in the OOB but listed as ***Not Present*** ???" in reference to:
1I./PzRg 26 - XXXXVII. PzKorps

I don't see any reference that says: "Not Present" in the default game OOBs.

The book you listed was not in the game Bibliography and I know Jim used archive situation maps for the unit positions - and I guess that unit was missed or not shown on those maps - that is only my guess. But it was picked up in the OOB Research so it appeared in the game OOB. It was not used but there is no "Not Present" reference that I could find.

Anyway - you have added it to the scn for you own purposes and that is great. That is about the best resolution anyway.

Oh - they have an A rating in the game OOB and you may want to drop that as your post mentioned they were "inexperienced crews and poor leadership" so C at least maybe even D or even E Quality would be better.

Glenn

Glenn Saunders Wrote:Oh - they have an A rating in the game OOB and you may want to drop that as your post mentioned they were "inexperienced crews and poor leadership" so C at least maybe even D or even E Quality would be better.

Good point, thanks! Though I don't think E quality is justified, C quality certainly is. German military training was top notch, E quality would be a quickly assembled unit with little training no? After all, this unit, fresh out of training as it may be, had spent all of '43 in training and waiting to be equipped. The Wehrmacht had notoriously well trained NCOs and officers.


[Edit] This batallion [/Edit] was originally intended for 26. PzDiv in Italy and spent most of '43 in France waiting to be equipped with Panthers. When equpped it was decided to send the Regiment to the east front instead and it was assigned to the Grossdeutchland division with which it spent 2 weeks but saw no combat. On jan 27th the regiment recieved transfer orders to report to XXXXVII. PzKorps. The regiment arrived on the morning of the 28th. Concerning the OOB this regiment should probably also have a HQ under command of Glässner.

This regiment has nothing to do with 24. PzDiv and it's unfortunate march back and forth.

33vortex Wrote:Sorry I think I'm being a bit confusing here, it's a Panzer Regiment, not a batallion.

No worries!

My point is there is no reference to NOT PRESENT in the Default Game OOBs or the three Default CGs.

The unit is in the OOB and it is not placed on the map at start or in reinforcements - and I am guessing because it couldn't be located on the situation maps that Jim Dunnam used.

But Jim Dunnam's work doesn't contain a reference to "Not Present" and I think that note was added in some material altered by someone who made a modified OOB or CG. And Jim Dunnam would not add a reference that said "Not Present" unless he had info that said this. And it certainly wasn't because Jim "he did not have time to add this unit to the scenario". I'd bet he just din't have the info you have.

That said - if you know that persons name who modified this scn and added the reference and you can contact them maybe they will use you new material to alter that modified Scn.

....and don't forget to tell them about the troop quality thing.

As for the default or offical game - as I didn't do the original work and I can't even find where those units should be on the map, I think I will leave it as it is.

Glenn