September 8th
1943 - U.S. General Dwight Eisenhower publicly announced the surrender of Italy to the Allies.
So Italy and World War Two.... outwith the stereotype of Italian forces being ... well .... rubbish what else did Italy gain from partaking in WW2?
I know folk may pounce on my last comment regarding the Italians but lets face it... that is the stigma that has stuck with them since the end of WW2. Funny how times change.... hell these guys were the conquerors of the ancient world... where did it all go wrong?
HiHi
Could it be a form of social 'Natural selection' Bootie?
I.e. all the great Empires have gone the same way Assyrian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Arab, Turkish + others, look at their peoples now!? So the Italians do not stand alone in this.
But as a salutary exercise let’s bring the list up to date and add the English. What a degenerate bunch of Arselicking whimps they have become; governed by a Celtic mafia intent on undermining all the values that once made England strong and honest, now? Phah, 99% of the English population is frantically scrabbling for a new identity be it ‘Brit’ or ‘European’ or ‘British’ or somesuch.
Two quotes from my ‘Thinks book’ may be of pertinence here.
“The character of a state is the result of the Character of its inhabitants” Plato ‘the Republic’
“Empires do not suffer emptiness of purpose at the time of their creation. It is when they have become established that aims are lost and replaced by vague ritual” Frank Herbert ‘Dune Messiah’
All the Best
Peter
I agree with what Peter has said in his post. I would also add that the Italian military in WWII suffered more from poor leadership and poor equipment than it did from ability or desire to achieve military greatness. In narrow cases the Italians, adequately equipped and led, performed as good as, and in some cases better, than comparable units in the Axis or Allied OOB. Overall certainly they did not, but the fact remains that some units in the Italian Military were not rubbish, and that opens the door to dispute the stereotype. It probably didn't help the Italians much that the people (as opposed to the Government), were always more inclined towards the Allied point of view. Italy, despite being the birthplace of Fascism, was never so much in love with it as other nations.
I think it should be remembered that most Italians (from what I gather) were not that keen on going to war in the first place but hoped Il Duce would deliver a sort of empire on the back of the Germans success without too much pain and hardship, they certainly didn't expect the British army to put up the kind of fight they did early in the war in Africa. The Italians also suffered from having their equipment, arms, tanks, supplies etc. stolen by Rommel to keep the Afrika Korps running at their expense, leaving them no option but to surrender in large numbers.
Peter, your comment about the English is a little harsh, we're not given to rebellion these days and prefer to seeth in silence, those of us with a modicom of intelligence sussed out what was going on quite some time ago.... and the last election was won by the conservatives if you just take the English vote.. .we were let down by our Welsh, N.Irish and Scottish cousins falling prey to the bribes, smoke and mirrors offered by those new labour bastards.. now the Scots have seen the light and are voting in their thousands for the SNP, Brown and his cronies will be left trying to bribe those they've employed in their thousands in made up government jobs which the Tories will abolish.. and the very poor, who'll be given handouts to vote Labour. If these foriegn marxist dictators get in again by any chance, I will be leaving the country (along with the rest of the thinking English) to the illegal immigrants and feckless drunks and idiots who voted them in...I've already bought a house in another country just ready for such a move :-)
FWIW, I don't believe there is such a thing as a British identity any more - only in the history books, I certainly do not believe I am European, the English are buggered from inside and out, but I still scream and shout for the English Rugby team when they play and sing "Jerusalem" and "swing low sweet chariot" as if my life depends on it :) (Our football team are just funny, and the cricket team are only good when we have a south african running it.. ha ha)
Anyway Peter, aren't you English? :whis:
( I re-read this and am still not sure it's coherent or sensible, but I'll post it anyway - just for the sake of discussion)
HiHi
Anyway Peter, aren't you English?
But of course!???
Who in their right mind would be anything else given the choice! (I had a special arrangement with my parents :) ). Born in Warwick in the Gods own county of Warwickshire, the Heart of England and firmly of the opinion that Wogs begin at the borders of Warwickshire, a concept my friends from lesser 2nd rate counties like Yorkshire seem to have some difficulty comprehending :conf:
On a serious note Paul I was not being Harsh at all, in fact I had my diplomatic hat on when I wrote those lines. we're not given to rebellion these days and prefer to seeth in silence, Yes, I missed out the “Gutless” bit between Arselicking & whimps; see I said I was being diplomatic.
That a people whose very foundation of Justice is under threat can idly sit watching their TV’s, shopping or whatever, while that very system of justice (Jury system) based on centuries of experience is stripped out from under their very noses speaks volumes. The jury system while often slow to filter through, provided a platform for the ordinary people to change bad laws etc and return a verdict of what was perceived in the community as ‘Justice’.
2 quick egs, During the Cromwellian military dictatorship the Puritans were keen to introduce Levatical law, so Adultery became a capital offence, some poor sot down Exeter way was actually Hung for it! But what was found over a relatively short time was that juries were refusing to convict, eventually the law was repealed. You will probably have heard of the ‘Black Laws’ of the 18th & 19th centuries whereby for eg you could be hung for stealing a handkerchief, well again over time Juries were again refusing to convict, and the laws got changed.
I could go on & on but thereby risk boring non English readers, suffice to add to the above, the fact that Welshman Presscots department was/is actually under instruction to find a legal base from the Act of Union that would strip English folk of their nationality and introduce a new nationality for them of British; the West Lothian question, no referendum re Europe, Multiculturalism etc. etc. etc. Our forefathers would have been up in arms over any one of these issues, todays English man? “Oh, I got to watch Coronation Street I’ll think about it later”.
Again quickly, if you just take the English vote. I now live in the Socialist stronghold of Co. Durham, Blair, Mandleson, Millbank etc. all elected by the folk around here, now in conversation with folk they nearly always say something along the lines of “well my dad & granddad voted Labour so I do as well, look at what the Tories did to the mines!”, point out to them that it was Wilsons socialist govt. that put the boot in to Durham mines and you get an embarrassed pause followed by “well at least he was Labour” ... !!!??? ... Like born again Christians or other “Believers” you can’t reason with these people they are Braindead in the logic/reason depts. It doesn’t stop them being nice people etc, just ... So in fairness you can’t just blame the Celts for our woes
I've already bought a house in another country just ready for such a move. You do well to think on those lines as there are no longer Englishmen prepared to take a stand for their ancient rights or country, I’m just sooo glad my lads mother emigrated to NZ taking him with her.
Harsh? .. Me? ... No I think not Paul.
All the Best
Peter
well Peter, you're kind of leaning against an open door with your argument, I'm in total agreement - and we both know it's a lot worse than you're writing here. I could fill a hundred threads with what I think has gone wrong and where I think we are now, I also have strong opinions about how I think it needs to be addressed. There's nothing wrong with socialists per se, problem is we're being governed by Marxist Scotsmen who must think it's poetic justice getting one over the auld enemy (Alex Salmond is apparently a personal friend of Gordon Brown).. I have a theory that back in their university days, Blair, Brown, Salmond and all the others formulated a plan to give Scotland it's freedom and sink England.. and they've done a pretty good job of it... and we're still here taking it.
As to the feckless English, more fool them (us) I say, our freedoms have been stripped away in the name of anti-terrorist laws, just you try protesting or organising anything anti-government and see how long you have your freedom for. The TV (especially government funded BBC) and the newspaper media are generally on the side of Brown and his cronies, they know he's unpopular at the moment, just wait until the next election comes around - it'll be full of how he has miraculously turned things around and how "things can only get better", that idiot Cameron won't know what's hit him.... anyway...
My move out of the country in the future has always been my plan, my wife is from Asturias in Northern Spain and we spend a lot of time there with friends and family - hence the little house (and my avatar)... it's quiet, mountainous, beautiful and by the coast... also very Celtic (!).... the Spanish know how to treat the lazy and useless.. there's no benefits... out of work - tough, try harder, teenage daughter pregnant, tough, look after her..etc. etc. .. hence, they still have very strong family bonds and a good work ethic, and consequently, life over there seems much more balanced to me... also... in Asturias, no foreign tourists apart from the walkers, hikers and adventurous types...no English lager louts there mate.
things will never be the same here again, as you already know - it's too late.... btw, I am from London, although I've lived in Hertfordshire most of my life (another county ruined by Prescotts over zealous planning "visions" for the south-east)... and in London, the English are actually a minority group.
But lets not put our non-british friends off.... ermm.... it's still a nice place to visit.... just don't stay too long... well.... unless you want a free house for you and all your family, and free money to live on, free health care and stuff like that, then you can stay as long as you like.
For the rest of us, we'll just keep paying 90% of our wages out in taxes and fines and give you all a big old British welcome. :) (and subsidise Scottish and Welsh taxes, NHS, Government, police etc... so they'll keep voting Labour)
..now Peter - see what you made me do....
missed out the “Gutless” bit between Arselicking & whimps
Oh yes... I still think this is a bit harsh... hoodwinked, fooled, lulled into a false sense of security by a booming economy, tied up, smacked down and controlled... slowly but surely, over a number of years... by the time the lightbulb comes on for most... it's too late, Blair said, Education, Education, Education.. but he really meant to use it to control people... as governments always do.. teach the young ones that you're right - and they'll believe it forever...
Bring back Mrs Thatch.... :)
HiHi
Well Paul between the pair of us we seem to have written a fairly good "Requiem for a Nation”.
Would the last Englishman to leave England, “please switch out the lights”
Sorry Bootie my fault, we seem to rather have hijacked your thread about the Italians ... ... Who?
All the Best
Peter
No worries.... it all about getting conversation going... so be it that it went along a different route than intended.