Forums

The z-fire thread got me to thinking about this in more detail:

An SPWW2 turn is supposed to represent 30 seconds in real time, IIRC. An average stationary LMG or HMG has 6 bursts available in that time. It's reasonable to assume, then, that firing 6 bursts represents holding down the trigger for something close to cyclic rate fire volume.

An average MG has cyclic rate ~600; thus, a single SPWW2 burst represents about 50 rounds fired. (It's a bit abstract, of course. Cyclic rates vary.) An average WWII-era rifle round weighs ~.0265 kg before adding the feed device. At a minimum, 50 rounds will weigh 1.36 kg or 3 lbs.

Thus, the average SPWW2 rifle squad carries 123 kg or 270 lbs of MG ammunition on top of its other gear.

This is a bit excessive. In a real late-war, 9-man German squad, the assistant gunner might get saddled with a 300-round, 9-kg ammunition can in each hand, and a 250-round, 7-kg belt draped around his neck. (That's 55 lbs of ammunition. Sucks to be him.) The two riflemen in a 4-man team might carry another 250-round belt each, and two riflemen from the rifle section also might have 250-round belts draped on them. The squad leader and at least the two guys up front would not be so burdened.

That's 1,850 rounds for a heavily encumbered squad, or 37 bursts. (But this is a German squad, carrying the MG 42, which enjoys very high combat values because it consumes ammunition at twice the normal clip. You could actually argue that it's *19* bursts.)

It's just a speculative suggestion that both reality and z-fire in practice would be enhanced by drastically lower ammo loadouts in SPWW2.

One must note that the values in H2H are just about spot on.

-- 30 --

A burst represent 2-3 rounds, for your calc about 6 kg worth of ammo for the squad.

What you should think about it the Sturm pioneer squad carrying two 280 mm rockets :)

limiting the ammo is always very interesting and something i welcome. i prefer adjustments like this to make the game more fun.

Vesku Wrote:A burst represent 2-3 rounds, for your calc about 6 kg worth of ammo for the squad.

I'm using the term "burst" differently.

Certainly, a quick pull of the trigger, or "burst fire," will discharge two to five rounds depending on machine and man.

But it's not realistic to argue that an MG is laying down withering fire with 18 bullets discharged over 30 seconds of combat. I'm using "burst" to mean "1 ammo increment for the MG in SPWW2." Realistically, that should represent about 40 rounds for a BAR to 100 rounds for the MG 42, with the average MG consuming 50 rounds per ammo increment, or "burst."

Vesku Wrote:What you should think about it the Sturm pioneer squad carrying two 280 mm rockets :)

I'd hazard that the demolition charges were even nastier deadweight. There's a reason that engineers are the first units to get motorized in just about every army ...

-- 30 --

I just more fully responded to the ammo issue on the Z-Fire thread.

A SP turn actually represents about 2 or 3 minutes of real time. So a 20 turn battle is about 40 to 60 minutes, and even that is considered compressed, because IRL similar battles would take far longer.

Regardless of realistic ammo loads, the game would benefit from units suffering from ammo shortage.

Cross Wrote:A SP turn actually represents about 2 or 3 minutes of real time.

So it does. I stand corrected. I wonder where my creaky old memory came up with the 30-second value.

Well, that just makes my argument four to six times more compelling. A standard SPWW2 squad can maintain all-out LMG fire for 30 to 45 minutes without resupply, whereas in real life they would be carrying enough ammunition for about 3 solid minutes of firing. (Or 90 seconds for the Germans.) It would be hard to argue against sharply cutting the loadouts, I think.

-- 30 --

seabolt Wrote:

Vesku Wrote:What you should think about it the Sturm pioneer squad carrying two 280 mm rockets :)

I'd hazard that the demolition charges were even nastier deadweight. There's a reason that engineers are the first units to get motorized in just about every army ...

-- 30 --

One rocket weights 85 kg :)

Vesku Wrote:One rocket weights 85 kg :)

Ye gods, point taken. Hernias must have been real common in the sturm pioneer units ...

-- 30 --

seabolt Wrote:Well, that just makes my argument four to six times more compelling. A standard SPWW2 squad can maintain all-out LMG fire for 30 to 45 minutes without resupply, whereas in real life they would be carrying enough ammunition for about 3 solid minutes of firing. (Or 90 seconds for the Germans.) It would be hard to argue against sharply cutting the loadouts, I think.

IRL battles the infantry platoons were supplied by runners who fetched ammo when given the opportunity. There's no way to simulate that in SP.

Lowering the ammo could lead to unwanted results in large & long battles. It would be tedious and not exactly realistic to drive around with ammo trucks to supply infantry squads..

zeiss Wrote:IRL battles the infantry platoons were supplied by runners who fetched ammo when given the opportunity. There's no way to simulate that in SP.

Lowering the ammo could lead to unwanted results in large & long battles. It would be tedious and not exactly realistic to drive around with ammo trucks to supply infantry squads..

I think that it gives more realism, you need to start thinking more how much you keep shooting when running low on ammo. I just finished one 30 turn battle where some of my inf squads were down to less than 10 rifle shots and no other ammo. I really liked that, units that were in a tough spot for a long time (an hour) were out of ammo. That is realism.