I bought S'41 soon after it came out, and have been a Blitz member since 2001, and as such I have a historical view of the evolution of idea, concepts, etc. I remeber when B'44 came it. It sparked endless hours of debate about victory conditions, protection values, OOBs, etc. I think that these online discussions were a turning point in player-developer relations, and really exemplifies why HPS rocks and rules.
It became evident that anyone who played the CG more than once learned to sit on reinforcement entry hexes to stop the opponent from bringing on more troops; this really pissed some of us off (me, for example), and Glenn and Tiller listened to the tirades and protection hexes came to be.
Players jumped all over it and created really interesting fixes to several playabilty issues such as Larry who made the first OOB allowing the Axis IDs to breakdown, and a whole series of modified CGs followed to enhance historical accuracy.
One fatal flaw with the original CG is the ability of the Axis to send an entier ss PD north to flank Elsenborn ridge and descend on Monschau and help to cutoff the 99th and 2nd IDs. This gambit is a pain in the ass as it is completely unhistorical, and several of the modified player CGs address this. I am playing the original CG and sure enough my axis opponent has tried this. I escaped - barely.
For the first time I am playing Ed Williams' altCG (solo) to see how he addressed this issue. Frankly, his fix is brilliant :bow:. Given the way he redid the OOB and values, this gambit is no longer all but checkmate. He fixed a few other things, and voila, it really plays like a Bulge Campaign should play. The tension is in the middle of the map, not on the northern and southern shoulders. His fix causes the Axis to secure flanks and push more centrally. He has fixed the problem of the Axis being able to roll up the sides of the map in a bizarre manner, ignoring the masses of Allied units "just off the map."
Anyway, job well done Ed!
Thanks,
Marquo :)
Marquo Wrote:One fatal flaw with the original CG is the ability of the Axis to send an entier ss PD north to flank Elsenborn ridge and descend on Monschau and help to cutoff the 99th and 2nd IDs. This gambit is a pain in the ass as it is completely unhistorical, and several of the modified player CGs address this. I am playing the original CG and sure enough my axis opponent has tried this. I escaped - barely.
Marquo :)
How funny. I for one enjoyed sending the 12th SS PZ around the flank of the 2nd and 99th.
Secondly, I see nothing wrong. The game sure isn't fun if the German is forced to play the game as the historical Germans played it out.
Isn't that why we play these games to see if we can better our performance over the historical conterparts?
Yes, we try to do better than our historical counterparts - but the playing field should not allow for completely aberrant and absurd manouvers. I liken the 12th ss gambit to surrounding (locking a zoc)entire battalions with one AT gun, and then watching as a sole flak unit of 6 guns assaults and destroys 1,500 men in several hours. Just as GS and JT ended the AT nonsense, so did Ed end the 12ss end run.
BTW, I am really fascinated as to how well the game flows with Ed's OOB. It is now a challenge and very tense to see if the Axis can succeed - a vey good game indeed.
And yes, I have decimated my share of opponents with the 12ss gambit, and I am a remorseful.
Marquo :-)
Marquo Wrote:One fatal flaw with the original CG is the ability of the Axis to send an entier ss PD north to flank Elsenborn ridge and descend on Monschau and help to cutoff the 99th and 2nd IDs. This gambit is a pain in the ass as it is completely unhistorical, and several of the modified player CGs address this. I am playing the original CG and sure enough my axis opponent has tried this. I escaped - barely.
I visited the Monschau, Kalterherberg, Höfen area this year. Really makes you wonder why the Germans historically did not send a Pz Div in the sector of the 326 VGD towards Höfen and then south through Kalterherberg towards Elsenborn. The road net was excellent there. I'll never understand why German command drew "Rollbahn A" through woods and over mud paths of the Krinkelter Forest. Oh well they did...
Huib Wrote:I visited the Monschau, Kalterherberg, Höfen area this year. Really makes you wonder why the Germans historically did not send a Pz Div in the sector of the 326 VGD towards Höfen and then south through Kalterherberg towards Elsenborn. The road net was excellent there. I'll never understand why German command drew "Rollbahn A" through woods and over mud paths of the Krinkelter Forest. Oh well they did...
... and we're all glad for it, too...
Aberent and absurd?
You could say it is ahistorical, sure, but when I first tried this I kept thinking,"Why doesn't my opponent see this coming?"
Let's face it, very few players patrol in these games. A little bit of agressive patrolling and the gambit fails.
I viewed not preparing for that gambit to be a sign of a weak or just new player.
HirooOnoda Wrote:Aberent and absurd?
You could say it is ahistorical, sure, but when I first tried this I kept thinking,"Why doesn't my opponent see this coming?"
Let's face it, very few players patrol in these games. A little bit of agressive patrolling and the gambit fails.
I viewed not preparing for that gambit to be a sign of a weak or just new player.
I'm not too familiar with this title, but what I gather the objection to be is that this gambit does not account for the presence of XXX Corps just to its right...
Liebchen Wrote:HirooOnoda Wrote:Aberent and absurd?
You could say it is ahistorical, sure, but when I first tried this I kept thinking,"Why doesn't my opponent see this coming?"
Let's face it, very few players patrol in these games. A little bit of agressive patrolling and the gambit fails.
I viewed not preparing for that gambit to be a sign of a weak or just new player.
I'm not too familiar with this title, but what I gather the objection to be is that this gambit does not account for the presence of XXX Corps just to its right...
I think you're reaching here. We can say that about any game concerning forces not included in the game but were, historically, just off the map.
I mean Let's just knock off the upper 5-10 hex rows off the north while were at it to prevent a German player for running the 12th SS around that flank.
Btw, I never had a problem with seeing the German player from trying to flank me in that said manner.
HirooOnoda,
When you write, "Let's face it, very few players patrol in these games. A little bit of agressive patrolling and the gambit fails," you elegantly prove my point about HPS historical perspective and adaptability. The patrol feature came out many years after B'44 was released. Even it can't save the 99th and 2nd IDs, because too many of these units are fixed in place.
I am on move 25 of a stock CG against an Axis opponent who has learned how to play the "game" very well. Not only did he do the 12ss end run, he also sent Lehr to the south where he tried to annhilate all the southern shoulder forces. He is trying to win by simply killing a maximum number of my units for vps; this is a valid way of playing but very "antidoctrinal;" and I for one have no problem with players creating their own doctrines. :)
:chin: He has gone so far as to send engineering units 2/3 up the southern side of the map to blow bridges to impede the arrival the much later arrival of Allied southern reinforcements. This is where I start having issues with playability. Why should one player be able to use historical aftersight and knowledge of the exact time and place of reinforcements, while his opponent is condemned to be scripted to historical facts with no ability to react to something as contrived as the death ride of engineers to blow the exact bridges that reinforcements are going to use 3 or 4 days later? In "reality" and in a really good tense "game," this could/would not happen. :soap:
Marquo
For at least some historical feeling it is better to play the ALT version vs Human than the stock version IMO. The stock version doesn't really resemble historical setup and OOBs at all; sort of a phantasy campaign that is.
But even for the ALT version it's a pity the map makers overlooked Höfener Mühle bridge and somehow decided not to display Kalterherberg, which was a strategical positioned village overlooking the Perlenbach Valley. South of Monschau is a creek on the map that doesn't even exist in reality... and the Rur (!) is missing...