Why is it pre-satellite era that we think that it is okay to fire at smoke spots in any of the game engines? I am just as guilty as everyone else but isnt this a bug in the game mechanics? Or do we assume that we have some hidden scouts or observers able to see the smoke from behind the hills?
I can see in modern warfare we have satellites that can spot units, radar receivers that can pinpoint enemy artillery by their own radar signal. In Vietnam and earlier though what were the odds that you would know where the heck the artillery was coming from?
If a unit is behind a hill in the treeline then I think it would be pretty well not viewable unless you managed to crest that hill. From accounts I read in World War II, you could spot an enemy mortar team but you pretty much had to be in their vicinity especially in a town or city situation.
Also how many of us purchase only artillery that fires the most shots?
Just want some insight into this condition and thoughts on it :)
Gary
Since it is a game and not a simulation, IMO, every threat needs a counter.
CBF was probably put in the game from some boardgame rules experience. Just a guess on my part.
I don't care much for overpowered arty in any game. Takes some of the fun out of it for me.
I know that CBF was used during WWII but how to use it in SP is another matter, maybe you could try negotiating with your opponent that firing arty at smokes is prohibited. I've used it sometimes, firing at spotted targets only. It's not realistic because arty was used to open the way for advancing forces without even knowing if there was anyone it the area.
It's mostly not historically correct to deploy guns on the map, they were used from greater distance than a klik. Mortars are for close support and only those should be on map ... and other indirect weapons lacking range. Of course there are situations where guns are about to be overrun and those are the only ones when they should be allowed to be deployed on map ... historically.
CBF was used in WW1 too and used aircraft to spot enemy artillery
The first CB fire was done at Vimy Ridge using sounding. The Cdns fired many "fake" shoots to get the Germans to fire defensive fires, and they sound triangulated the guns. They were so accurate that within a few hours of the opening Vimy offensive 85% of all German guns were silenced.
However, this took days of work triangulating the German guns before the battle for it to happen. In game terms, I don't know but in Vietnam they did quite a bit of CB on enemy mortars and rockets.
Just a good reason to make sure you move every few turns.
I prefer on-board arty, not only because you can look for the smoke and do counter battery fire but because you get a chance to over-run the enemies guns.
In my oppinion this reduces a bit the arty dominance in the battlefield.
It means that the biggest guns do not necessarily win. While with off-board arty if you are out-ranged by the enemies guns you are going to be in trouble.
The complaint about being able to locate guns by their smoke in the pre-satelite era is understandable. However, I think it makes the game more enjoyable, as I said above.
Also, in war there are many ways of finding enemy guns which are not represented in WW2 /MBT: spies, intercepted comms, info obtained from prisioners, etc.
There is an easy option to avoid the guns being located by the smoke plumes they make, provided your opponent agrees: use off board arty.
I'm playing a game at the moment where we've said we will not to fire at these puffs of smoke as we believe it would be unrealistic to spot hidden artillery by this smoke.
So far everything is working out OK, although it could possibly be a problem if you wished to put area fire in a location for some other reason. I guess we will have to restrain ourselves if that is the case.
Our rule is the enemy artillery has to be spotted by someone with a radio before CBF can be used.
I think it all depends on how realistic you want to try to make your game and trust your opponent.
Gordon
Firing at smoke and having your smoke fired at is part and parcel of SP games for me and counter battery fire was very much a part of WW2, planes for example to spot over hills, sound and the other methods could all be used.
if players are really worried they should buy trucks or get mobile arty, most of the time I take mobile arty or use tucks and organize thins so that when one is moving others are firing so that I can keep the fire up, also decoy smoke makes for good fun, either by firing and moving leaving a nice empty smoke patch for your op, or having infantry drop smoke and then moving your arty under it so to have concealment, or even using fire on the map.
Its a lazy opponent who places his arty and expects it to remain unmolested, in real life the fastest bug outs I have ever seen were the gunners because they knew what was coming once they were detected, hence gun crews can shift when needed and in WW2 this was the case also.
Or buy off board and avoid the whole problem.
Just a question about Counter Battery.
I'm almost sure that in some of the older versions (SP, SP2, Camo SPww2, WaW ?? I can't say) the Counter battery fire was managed automatically by the system during the artillery phase of your opponent. I understood that, if you have an artillery tube with better range and not firing this turn, then, the system may use it to counter fire your opponent fire.
Did I dream or is it still true with WinSPxxx serie? :chin:
Hi Thesix
You are quite correct.
With off-board arty, if you have a unit that is not targeted the game will attempt to CB fire at the opponent's OB arty.
You must have a longer range, not be targeted and a decent experience rating also helps.
Cheers
Walrus
Thesix Wrote:Just a question about Counter Battery.
I'm almost sure that in some of the older versions (SP, SP2, Camo SPww2, WaW ?? I can't say) the Counter battery fire was managed automatically by the system during the artillery phase of your opponent. I understood that, if you have an artillery tube with better range and not firing this turn, then, the system may use it to counter fire your opponent fire.
Did I dream or is it still true with WinSPxxx serie? :chin: