I will admit a fondness for the weapon, as I fired it from the turret of a sheridan in the late 70's.
A WWII U.S. infantry division had 236 of these in its TOE, and an infantry regiment 35. I have always felt that this firepower is underrepresented in the PzC oobs.
A suggestion: up the soft firepower of the 57mm AT units in oobs that have them to represent their 50 cals (as guns, not troops).
...My old pal von Ege may be luring me back to the Bulge (we co-designed the Dark Winter scenario) if I cannot convince him not to surrender in our Four days in June, 1815 playtest.
Just make sure that the operator head space and timing are set correctly.:chin:
Regards,
CptCav:laughing:
FM WarB Wrote:A WWII U.S. infantry division had 236 of these in its TOE, and an infantry regiment 35.
I have a book - US ARMY Infantry Division 1943-45
It lists everything right down to 1 set of hair clippers per 24 men and how many watches for COmpany HQ - and while one would have to go though it org by org and tally the numbers - something I have not done I admit - but I don't see the numbers you are quoting in this book.
Let me see if I can do a quick count from the book.
I see one per Rifle company - with Weapons platoon. I guess that is 9 so far.
At Btln there is 2 more per Btln. One with Ammunition and Pioneer Platoon and another with Anti Tank Platoon. That is 6 more and I am up to 15.
Cannon Company and Anti Tank Company at the Regt level adds another 6 - 1 per platoon, 3 platoons per Company and I am up to 21. I could be missing a few but I don't think I am skipping 15.
3x that for three Regt per Div. Yes - I can find some 50 cals at Div level too - and some 30 cals as well but I don't see 236 per Div.
Also -I am not sure really how many units would be at 100% TO&E of everything. The same book calls for 5 french horns per Div too.:)
Anyway I'm sure folks would be interested in seeing your breakdown. I know WIg Graves went to great detail in the N44 OOB to figure out everything. And I know if later games we dropped off a lot of support units because many of us - myself included found the N44 OOB too detailed to be playable at anything like the larger Scns.
I think Bulge made an effort to take out some of the detail and make the game playable but last I heard most people thought the GErmans had an impossible task ahead so up gunning the US UInf won't do much for game play.
In any case I would be interested in seeing you 50 cal breakdown for the Division and then see if I can find the guns in my book because it has EVERYTHING - compasses, stoves, tents, you name it. The Entire TO&E.
Glenn
5 French Horns? Surely there has to be some sort of hard attack (on the ears) increase that can be factored in for these "guns".
Glenn,
I found those numbers in Stanton, World War Two Order of Battle TOE 7, July 1943. Something to think about for those that like detailed oobs. I happen to agree that large multi army scenarios should not be too detailed for playability purposes. What Army Group commander wants to be mucking around with batalion tactics? (I hope those that do enjoy it.) Having alot of independent companies of different weapons types who cannot combine may accurately define weapons types, but those companies are frailer than units that can combine.
As I tweak the Dark Winter oob, thanks for helping me resist the temptation to get too detailed. I had to twist von Ege's arm to get in Volksgrenadier regimental mortars. (I wanted something they couldnt get across that river without a bridge.) We decided to have all batalions comprised of subunits with the same weapons types, which required fudging, especially for cavalry and Aufklaring units.
Warren[/u]
FM WarB Wrote:Glenn,
I found those numbers in Stanton, World War Two Order of Battle TOE 7, July 1943. ....
FWIW, I didnt think you took the number out of thin air, I just have a hard time seeing that many. Even the differnece from 35 per Inf Regt which is 105, less than 236 is a lot of MGs that I wasn't seeing.
I guess you don't have a breakdown of those numbers? I am jus curious - that is all.
Glenn
IMO it is not a question of how many of a particular weapon system there is over just factoring in the weapon system in general. Who is to say how many HA points will go up or down because of X or Y amount of caliber .50s? Also keep in mind that TOE data usually does not specify that some of the HMGs might be spare weapons. Not sure how it was back then but in an M1A1 tank company there were plenty of spare HMGs that the armorer used for spares and parts.
Also, while a cal .50 can take out a BMP-1 and other light skinned vehicles on the modern battlefield, if you boost an infantry unit's hard attack value then does that mean the cal .50 should be able take out a WW2 era German tank? It is kind of difficult to factor a weapon like this into a unit's ratings more than it already is. However, the beauty of it is that anyone can come up with an idea and justify it either way. :)
Volcano Man Wrote:IMO it is not a question of how many of a particular weapon system there is over just factoring in the weapon system in general.
Ya - good point Ed - I dug a little deeper because I awas curious and found a source which matched the 236 number Warren mentioned. No breakdown but I think it includes a Tank Btln (count 66 there according to the N44 OOB) and likley a TD Btln with M-10s and some HT - that would be another 40 or more.
So I can see it getting up there now.
I still can't count the 35 in a Regt, but I suppose anything is possible - however you want to look at it.
Glenn
the infantry bn had six: one in Ammo & pioneer plt, one in heavy wpns plt and one in antitank plt. Three more, apparently in an "antiaircraft" plt. Regimental allocations I am unsure about as I dont have detailed TOEs and a web search turned up no good free info.
Ed is correct about extra weapons floating around, especially in veteran units.
Gents,
I do not have the number for the US inf. div but I do have it for the AB div.
It looks like the number of 50-cal.HMG increase to the end of the war.
For ex. Airborne div. Dec 16, 1944 total 50-cal.HMG: 165.
So it could well be that US inf. div could have more of these.
Source: Steven J Zaloga. "US Airborne Divisions in the ETO 1944-45"
Osprey Publishing 2007.